Mystery Skeleton

This half-skeleton of a St Helens front Leyland was seen 18/03/2015. It bears an East Lancs maker's plate, is painted light blue inside the doors of the rear-platform and on the bonnet but has no other clues as to its previous owner other than a disclaimer notice which refers to 'the corporation'. Any ideas from the bus detectives?

Les Dickinson

02/04/15 - 12:23

I see you've left us all in suspense, Les, in respect of where this skeleton was found - could it still be there?
I presume there was no sign of a body number on the East Lancs plate - that would have identified it straightaway. Did you notice whether it had been manual or semi-automatic? That would narrow things down quite a bit.
Can anyone say for certain whether it's a PD2 or PD3? I favour the latter myself.
I'm a little unconvinced by the platform doors, I think they may have been a later addition.

David Call

02/04/15 - 16:53

Sorry David, There was no more information visible I'm afraid. No tax disc holder etc. I didn't notice whether it was manual change I'm afraid. It is in the far corner of a field in deepest, darkest West Wales. I had the field-owners permission to enter the premises though it was rather hazardous with ditches, brambles, pot-holes and the like. The front wheel hub had the word Leyland across it. Picture attached of the East Lancs plate.

Les Dickinson

03/04/15 - 05:38

The 5-bay body with long windows marks this as a PD3A. A quick trawl through the East Lancs list on Bus lists on the web reveals (unless I have been too hasty) just 4 operators who took the rear platform version - Accrington, Cardiff, Leicester and Stockport.
Geographical location suggests that Cardiff is first choice, but it could be any of them.

Alan Murray-Rust

03/04/15 - 05:40

I think it is a PD3A rather than the PD2A.
The traces of blue paint would suggest Leigh 778/9 YTB, fleet numbers 3 and 37, but both these had lowbridge bodies, possibly the last lowbridge bodies built by E/Lancs.
Les, was there enough of the frame work left to decide if there was an upper deck sunken gangway?
Failing that the most numerous E/Lancs bodied rear entrance PD3A's were the forty one bought by Leicester between 1963 and 1967.
Cardiff had six delivered in 1963 and Accrington had two batches of two, 417/8YTB and 9689/90TJ.
I haven't checked any further back than 1961 but there's enough mentioned above to be going on with.
Perhaps someone knows of one of these that ended up with an independent with a light blue livery.

Eric Bawden

03/04/15 - 08:14

This picture shows that it would have been normal height Eric. My first instinct was that the blue was a Lancashire operator, but I couldn't remember who had the colour. I doubt this one was Cardiff. I think they were using orange at the time of this bus. I'll put a bonnet picture on later, some of the blue has worn, showing a sort of creamy colour -could just be a base-coat I guess.

Les Dickinson

03/04/15 - 10:06

This picture of the bonnet area has changed my mind. I think this is ex-Leicester given that they had so many and the wheel painted red too. The fact that the blue has worn away suggests a non-professional application of the blue at a later date?

Les Dickinson

03/04/15 - 11:51

Les The additional photos make all the difference. I would never put too much reliance on paint colour, although it would depend on how thorough any further owner was in removing older stuff. The view of the bonnet shows as predominantly cream, but it's impossible to tell from your picture whether the blue or the cream is the top layer.
However, the critical feature is that there is a hopper vent in the nearside bulkhead window, which indicates a Leicester vehicle. This Accrington specimen www.flickr.com/photos/mjrprestonbus/10208425674/ has no vent at all and also a non-rectangular window.
Cardiff http://www.sct61.org.uk/cf402 certainly has push-out vents on the upper deck and appears to have the same lower. Stockport I can't quickly find a view of a PD3A on the web, but I have one of my own pictures which shows that the the bulkhead window is also non-rectangular.
This leaves Leicester, and this view more or less confirms it - hopper vents up and down, and rectangular window. www.flickr.com/photos/johnmhague/14034585074/
If the cream of the bonnet is original colour, then again Leicester is the only candidate; Stockport's were red, Cardiff maroon, later yellow, and Accrington dark blue.

Alan Murray-Rust

03/04/15 - 11:59

An update on my previous comments. I have double checked and of course Stockport never had any PD3As, only PD2As, so can be eliminated, but their PD3s did have non-rectangular bulkhead windows anyway.

Alan Murray-Rust

03/04/15 - 12:10

A bit more research and I think it may have narrowed down to a specific vehicle. Leicester 82 (82 HBC) passed to Astill and Jordan, who used a light blue which is very similar to the blue on the bonnet. Furthermore, they fitted platform doors, as can be seen in this view at St Margaret's in Leicester www.flickr.com/photos/guy_arab_uf/6406768887/ This is also consistent with the presence of blue paint on the platform door observed by Les. Why it should then have made its way to west Wales is a question still to be answered.

Alan Murray-Rust

03/04/15 - 15:38

All good stuff Alan. I wonder though, why it is sporting red wheels again if it is as you say (and I tend to agree). I have another picture which shows that the front below the driver's windscreen is all blue, more-or-less consistent with the Astill vehicle colour. The picture is a very poor shot in the shade and not adequate for this site I think.

Les Dickinson

03/04/15 - 15:38

The mention of light blue made me also instinctively think of Leicester 82 (later Astill & Jordan), but from Astill & Jordan it went to Stevensons (of Spath) who fully repainted it in their own colours. Reregistered while with Stevensons to RRF 109B (Stevensons wanted 82 HBC for one of their coaches), it later ostensibly went to Plymouth Citybus (repainted again!) as a trainer, and later still to travellers - last reported preserved in the Netherlands. However, by the time 'it' was with Plymouth Citybus the registration plate had dropped to its more normal position at the bottom of the grille, and the platform doors had disappeared, leading me to suspect that it was actually a different vehicle.

David Call

04/04/15 - 06:39

Correction - in one of the available shots of the vehicle with Plymouth Citybus it's very difficult to see the doors, but they may be there. In another shot it does look as though they are indeed there.
Vehicle variously described as last recorded preserved/mobile home.
I think that the subsequent documented history of Leicester 82 rather steers us away from the likelihood of it being the one derelict in West Wales, despite the light blue paintwork.

David Call

04/04/15 - 11:22

It does indeed appear to be 83 HBC (chassis No L02595) & re registered as RRF 109B 2/85. Last recorded with David Hoare, Chepstow for spares. Presumably where it still is.

John Wakefield

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