A question to those better informed than I, arising out of Ian Wild's photo of the Sheffield Leyland and David Oldfield's comments on the lifespan of these vehicles. My recollection is that new vehicles came with a 7 year Certificate of Fitness; they were generally given further 5 year CoFs after overhaul, and so, since many operators would undertake two overhauls during the vehicle's life, a 'normal' lifespan worked out at 17 years. Of course in practice there would be many different factors which determined how long an operator would keep its fleet, but, 'all other things being equal', 17 years was a figure, (certainly amongst the companies with which I was associated), that management tended to regard as a norm. How/why did vehicles last for 18 or 19 years? Did they get a longer CoF than 5 years? Did they get a third recertification? I can understand how rebodying or rebuilding, (such as York-West Yorkshire did) could affect lifespan, but otherwise I don't follow the arithmetic. An explanation from someone more knowledgeable than I would be most appreciated.
Roy Burke
Roy. I don't think Sheffield was alone in having a "short" life turn-over for their fleet. [It certainly continued in SYPTE, SYT and Mainline days.] This was not as long as normal company or BTC life-span. On consulting "Sheffield Transport" (Charles C Hall) the average age at withdrawal was probably nearer 14 years - accidents and mechanical failures accounting for earlier withdrawal but with "freaks" in most classes outlasting the rest. You are absolutely correct about 7 and then 5 year CoF. Not being directly involved in the industry in those days, I cannot swear but I believe it was possible to get a one year ticket after twelve years - which is what I believe Sheffield did.
David Oldfield
Well Roy and David, if it helps I think I can throw a bit more light on tnis subject, based on my time happily spent with Samuel Ledgard which was, as everyone knows, a highly individualistic operator and fascinating for it. I think that as far as the Ministry was concerned there were only two "standard" periods for Certificates of Fitness, as already mentioned Seven years when new and five years at the first major overhaul. Thereafter I'm sure that further Certificates were issued entirely on the condition of the vehicle, age being a minor consideration if a consideration at all within reason. Certainly I've known of many vehicles receiving renewals of one, two, three or four years and even intermediate halves (eg 18 months) on occasion. Providing an operator was prepared to spend the necessary money on bringing a vehicle up to scratch for a reasonable time there would have been little justification for an appropriate Certificate to be refused - the financial logic being entirely the operator's own affair.
Chris Youhill
This would explain why many (but by no means all) BET companies worked to a twelve year life policy, a seven and a five, and in consequence providing a very attractive supply of vehicles for the second-hand market, such as the South Wales Regents which went to Ledgard!
Chris Barker
Certificates of Fitness used to be issued initially for 5 years, this was extended to 7 years during the mid to late 1950s, sorry my memory doesn't recall exactly when. The length of subsequent CoFs depended on the amount of rebuilding done by the Operator prior to submission to the Certifying Officer and also on the whim of that particular gentleman. At one Operator I worked for, we did a major strip down and rebuild of both body and chassis and managed to get a 6 year CoF at first renewal. Second and subsequent renewals would get a diminishing duration of CoF. The Yorkshire Traffic Area Certifying Officers were notoriously difficult to satisfy for a lengthy CoF at renewal whereas we had a couple of 13 year old single deckers 'overhauled' and recertified by a Contractor in the East Midlands TA and we were amazed by them getting a 6 and a half year CoF with half the work we used to have to put in. Buses tended to be withdrawn at the expiry of their CoF and my Company tried to work to a 13 year life (1 x 7yrs initial CoF + 1 x 6 years CoF renewal).
Ian Wild
30/09/12 - 12:12
Further to earlier comments, there were major operators who kept vehicles far longer than has already been mentioned.
Three operators of which I have had detailed knowledge over the last 55 years are Manchester, Stockport and North Western.
Some Manchester examples of longevity:
A batch of 33 Leyland TD5s with Crossley bodies delivered between March and May 1940 saw the first withdrawal (except for one accident victim) in September 1958. Withdrawals of small numbers continued through 1959, none went in 1960 and 19 survived until 1961 when 18 went. The last vehicle didn't leave the fleet until February 1962.
This was not uncommon. Of the first 50 Metro Cammell Phoenix bodied CVG6s delivered in 1950/51, one accident victim apart, the shortest life was 17 years and 8 months. 27 were passed to SELNEC at between one month short of 19 years and the rest 3 to 4 months younger.
All the second batch of 40 passed to SELNEC at between 18 years and 6 months and 18 years and 8 months and a number lasted another 2 years or so before the axe descended as SELNEC started its policy which ended with withdrawals after 13 years.
Victims of the same policy were Manchester's first PD2s, the last vehicles with post war Standard bodies, delivered in 1951/2 all but two of which survived between 19 and 21 years - one being an accident victim, the other (3270) passing to GM Buses in 1984, though no longer in passenger service.
Some Stockport vehicles were even longer lived.
2 Leyland TD3s from 1934 lasted until 1958, a 1935 TD4c lasted until 1959, its sisters in the batch being withdrawn in 1958.
5 of the 1936 batch of TS7s lasted until 1962, 3 lasting into 1963, the 1937 batch also being withdrawn during 1962/3.
The 1940 batch of TD7s lasted until 1962/3 and almost the whole of the 1946 -1949 deliveries of Leylands and Crossleys lasted between 19 and 21 years. 13 of the 1951 batch of PD2s survived to pass to SELNEC at 18 and survived for another 2 or so years in various forms of service.
North Western went through massive and complex rebodying programmes of pre war vehicles in the 1940s and 1950s so the "age" of many of the single deckers, some chassis with their third body when withdrawn in the early 1960s, is open to interpretation. Nonetheless, the Bristol double decker K5Gs of 1938/9, rebodied by Willowbrook in 1951/2, continued to give sterling service, as well as unasked for vibro-massages, to passengers until the last of the 1939 batch went in 1964.
Phil Blinkhorn
02/10/12 - 15:13
I was highly amused by Phil's description of the compulsory therapeutic advantages of travelling by North Western K5G. I think its true to say that those worthy power units did as much to ease long standing rheumatic and other pains as did any amount of visits to clinics - NHS or otherwise. When I was a young conductor with West Yorkshire RCC, and had a reasonable evening social life, I have many a K5G to thank for swiftly getting me up to Setright speed in the early hours of the morning !!
On a more serious note, the granting of Certificates of Fitness does seem to have been more "personality" governed than you would expect. One model which appeared to sail pretty reliably and economically through the examinations was the Leyland PD! with Leyland bodywork of 1946/7/8 vintage. At Samuel Ledgard's demise in 1967 many of the 1947 examples were in impeccable fettle mechanically and bodily - a tribute to SL maintenance latterly and, in the case of those from the other side of the Pennines, to Ribble and Preston Corporation from new.
Chris Youhill
02/10/12 - 15:12
In 1957 Provincial suffered a depot fire in which seven buses were destroyed. Replacements were urgently needed and five AEC's were bought from the Northern General Group, including 3 Regent 1's the came from the Tynemouth and Wakefields subsiduary at Percy Main, they were FT 4220/2 fleet numbers 93/5. They were new in 1936 and originally had Weymann front entrance bodies, but about 1945 they were re bodied with Pickering H30/26R's FT 4220 and 4222 were withdrawn by Provincial in 1962 and 4221 survived until 1963 by which time the chassis was 27 years old. Tynemouth's buses were worked hard and were never pampered, but they were looked after properly and were always well maintained.
Ronnie Hoye
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