From comments received for the Samuel Ledgard - AEC Regent III RT - MXX 148 posting.
Samuel Ledgard was an independent bus operator in the Leeds Bradford area of West Yorkshire, if you want a more in depth history it can be found on Peter Goulds excellent website here.
I've never been able to understand why everybody seems to think Ledgards were so marvellous: when they ceased trading they had 108 PSVs, of which 34 were RTs aged between 14 and 20 years old, 26 were Titans aged between 13 and 20, 8 Regent IIIs were 17-21 years old, and 9 Arabs were 13-16 years old. In other words, 75% of the fleet was overdue for withdrawal by the standards of most operators, hardly any of it was suitable for OMO work, in fact it was a rolling museum.
Apart from six Bedfords and a couple of Fords, the only vehicles under 10 years old were the ten Regent Vs and two Daimlers taken over by West Yorkshire; no wonder none of the operators who took over their routes wanted any of this junk!
Wonderful for the enthusiast, no doubt, but hardly a sustainable long-term business model....
David Jones
Well, having paused just long enough to be able to reply rationally and civilly to David Jones's "puzzlement", I can set his mind at rest in very simple terms. "Everybody thinks that Ledgards were so marvellous" because they were marvellous. It is doubtful if any operator of any size has ever provided a higher degree of utter service reliability at all times with vehicles which, regardless of age and variety, were maintained to the very highest standards. It is true to say that any lost mileage at all was viewed very seriously and, if any deliberate misconduct was involved, the guilty party was left in no doubt as to the likely consequences of any repetition. A quick look at the angry passenger correspondence in the local press after Sunday October 15th 1967 will establish beyond doubt that "Ledgards were marvellous." The enormous and affectionate turnout by hundreds of Aireborough and Wharfedale folks throughout our fortieth anniversary running day on October 14th 2007 says more than a thousand words.
Just a few brief comments are called for now on David's penultimate paragraph. The six Bedford coaches (and the two 36 foot Leopards which are not mentioned) were not owned but were on a sensible leasing agreement from a dealer. Sadly these days the managements of most operators are obsessed with "average age of fleet" and zany decor and marketing features. This would be understandable if it automatically guaranteed pleasant and comfortable riding - and mechanical reliability - it most certainly does not. I despair increasingly in present times at having to do much of my frequent bus travelling in expensive mobile atrocities which are badly designed and, more worryingly, of very poor construction where inadequacies and discomfort begin to show almost before the paint has dried.
An avid enthusiast I certainly am (or perhaps was) but I have no rose tinted glasses !!
Chris Youhill
Some very interesting comments regarding Samuel Ledgards fleet in the 60s.
You will find if you research that up to his death Samuel Ledgard never bought a second hand bus, all his purchases were brand new. Used vehicles were purchased by the executors who found that fleet renewal was needed sooner rather than later and as death duties had cut back available funds the only way was to purchase used vehicles.
Irrespective of age profile all the vehicles were maintained to a high degree. Who knows, if they had not sold out we may have seen new Wright buses today in Ledgard livery.
The Ledgard business was a highly respected undertaking both by other operators and also the general public.
Terry Malloy
I have to say that I fall down on the side of Chris and Terry. Samuel Ledgard was outside my normal orbit so it's not right that I pontificate. Suffice it to say, in today's climate of disposable sewing machines - Dennis Dust Carts et al - operators very often emulate the rubbish they run. As Chris said, age profile not withstanding, a class act is a class act. I drove coaches for a class act - running low mileage second hand Volvo Van Hools in immaculate condition. His son took over and started buying brand new IVECOs and it was a class act no longer. Wrights are arguably the current Rolls Royce of service bus bodies, a class act. Their biggest customer, from the big four, is not a class act!
David Oldfield
I think Terry Malloy has hit the nail on the head: it was death duties which were responsible for ‘The Executors’ of Samuel Ledgard having to buy second hand vehicles. Perhaps we should also remember that the 60's were a time of reducing traffic for all provincial operators, combined with rising staff costs. Many people thought the PSV industry was in inevitable terminal decline.
One-man operation regarded by many operators as being only a partial solution; it was seen, (I don't say correctly), as failing to cope with peak demand, and in any case there were still lots of front-engined double deckers that required conductors.
West Yorkshire certainly didn't go a bundle on OMO in those days. Their attitude to the Ledgard fleet was, moreover, no doubt affected by their being a Tilling company; apart from its age, all of Samuel's fleet, chassis and bodies alike, was entirely different, and keeping it on just meant lots of unnecessary operational problems.
Roy Burke
I don't deny that Ledgards may have run reliable services, but so too did many other operators. I ran a West Riding depot where lost mileage was also virtually unknown (Saville Street, if you're interested), and 18 Crosville depots and outstations in North Wales which were even better, but no one has yet answered my larger point: the way Ledgards were operating was not sustainable in the long run; even RTs and PD1s don't last forever, and the spares position must have been getting worse even then.
And, there were so many old vehicles that even leasing enough modern stock to reduce the age profile to realistic levels would have been impossible. And age profile does matter: old vehicles inevitably need more labour to keep them up to standard, they need more frequent servicing and repair, and labour costs money. The more mixed the fleet, the more expensive it is to hold spares and train your fitters.
And if death duties were the start of the decline, well, doesn't that say something about the way the business was structured financially? Death duties weren't a new innovation, so the late, great Samuel ought to have seen them coming and pondered how his business would carry on after he wasn't there, particularly given the rapidly evolving economic climate at the time. Remember this was the very time Harold MacMillan was telling the British people, quite rightly, that they "had never had it so good!"
Blaming the Executors for buying secondhand just demonstrates how desperate a situation they inherited. You can create a personal business empire, but the true test is, does it go on into the next generation?
If there's no forward planning, there's no future.
David Jones
Very interesting points raised by David Jones.
Ledgards had tried to make a standard fleet hence the number of RT vehicles in the fleet, with vehicles purchased complete to strip for spares as this was cheaper than buying spares as and when required.
Ledgards did not have the financial backing that Leeds City Transport had in the 50s and 60s.
If you read the excellent book published about L.C.T. upto 1974 you will find that the losses were fantastic with the council paying in rate payers money all the time.
Another interesting point is that although the fleet in the 50s and 60s were older buses these same buses are still running around abroad some 60 years after they were built.
Also in the early 70s operators of nice modern buses were fighting over themselves to buy the RM from London Transport for use in cities where back loading vehicles were faster to operate.
Remember that some of these vehicles were 40+ years old so reliability of older vehicles must have been considered and found not to be a problem.
In to days era when we see Bristol VR buses still running whilst Optare Deltas, Leyland Olympian, Leyland Atlantean, and many other newer vehicles are withdrawn it goes a long way to telling us that some of the older buses were built to last.
If you wish to know the forced reason behind the sale of his company you should read "Beer And Blue Buses". This excellent book tells the life story of Samuel Ledgard and also the story of how the executors had to deal with the take over.
Possibly after reading this book your thoughts on Samuel Ledgard will change.
Terry Malloy
I was happy, willing, and honoured to help Mr. Don Bate with photo captions, information regarding the traffic side, and much proof reading while "Beer and Blue Buses" was approaching completion. The book is a wonderful work of interest and local history reference and atmosphere for those who survive the sight of your's truly as a young conductor on the front cover.
Chris Youhill
Comments regarding the above are more than welcome please get in touch via the 'Contact Page' or by email at obp-admin@nwframpton.com
All rights to the design and layout of this website are reserved
Old Bus Photos from Saturday 25th April 2009 to Wednesday 3rd January 2024