Dennis Lancet MTV 358

Can anyone tell me what bodywork this Dennis Lancet carried, and who owned it before it passed to Ray Pryce Coaches of Woodville in south Derbyshire? Chassis number 882J3A, photo taken on 7 July 1963 off Moira Road in Woodville.

Tim Jeffcoat

24/07/13 - 11:03

According to PSV Circle publication CXB 372 the vehicle is a J3A Lancet (chassis number 882J3A) with Yeates half-cab C37F bodywork, new to Grange of Ramsey St Mary in September 1950. However, the fully-fronted bodywork shown in this photograph has more of a Strachan look to it. Was it re-bodied at some point?

Neville Mercer

24/07/13 - 11:03

This is a Lancet III J3 with Yeates coachwork, new to Grange of Ramsey St Marys, Cambs in 1950.

Phlip Lamb

24/07/13 - 11:04

The distinctive style of bodywork was definitely by Strachan, but I can not find MTV 358 listed in the PSV Circle's Dennis Lancet chassis list so presume it must be another model - such as a Falcon.

John Stringer

24/07/13 - 14:38

The bodywork is undoubtedly Strachans. The date would appear to be correct, MTV was issued from June 1950, therefore, as Neville suggests, this body may not be the original and the style of front grille does tend to be associated more with the Falcon. Why though, would it carry a City of Nottingham registration if it was supplied new to an operator in Cambs?

Chris Barker

25/07/13 - 07:04

The chassis designation J3A indicates the full fronted version of the Lancet, so the vehicle was clearly ordered from new with the intention of fitting full fronted bodywork. The style of radiator shown on MTV 358 was the standard type offered for this chassis by Dennis unless the coach builder chose to fit its own "modern" front. Is is not possible that the PSV Circle list is in error in stating that this coach was initially supplied with a Yeates half cab body? It does seem improbable that this vehicle, designed from the outset for a full front as shown, was first bodied as a half cab, and then rebuilt by Strachans with the factory supplied Dennis front end for the J3A model. I cannot recall seeing in pictures or in real life a half cab example of a Lancet with this radiator style, though, as always with the level of knowledge on this site, I am open to correction.

Roger Cox

26/07/13 - 06:37

The J3A designation referred to the length of the vehicle (30 ft) rather than the frontal layout - there are plenty of fully-fronted J3s and a fair percentage of half-cab J3As. The vehicle is also listed in the PSV Circle's "Yeates" body list, and as that publication was produced from a different set of corporate records it seems unlikely that both entries are wrong. I would suggest that it might have received a 1949-50 Strachan body from another vehicle - they produced dozens of the fully-fronted version on all kinds of half-cab chassis.

Neville Mercer

26/07/13 - 06:37

Just to throw another ingredient into the pot, the PSV Circle Yeates body list gives slightly different information from their Dennis chassis list by quoting the body as FC35F, which is of course compatible with a J3A chassis. It still doesn't help to explain when the Strachans body came onto the scene, of course.

David Williamson

26/07/13 - 10:09

With respect to Neville, whose knowledge is assuredly an asset to our enthusiast interests, the 'A' suffix certainly denoted a full front version of the Lancet chassis. My long held understanding in this matter is supported in the writings of Dennis experts Stewart J. Brown and Robin Hannay. The 30ft x 7ft 6ins Lancet was the J10/J10A, the 8ft wide versions being J10B half cab version (exposed radiator), and the J10C the full fronted type (concealed radiator).

Roger Cox

26/07/13 - 17:36

My apologies, Roger, I was regurgitating something I was told years ago by another enthusiast who was "into" Dennis PSVs. However, if you are right, this still doesn't explain why chassis list CXB 372 contains many J3s with fully-fronted bodywork and several J3As with half-cabs. Do we have any Dennis experts out there who can give us a definitive answer?

Neville Mercer

26/07/13 - 17:37

The latest PSV Circle body list for Yeates (Publication B1000 of March 2011) doesn't list MTV 358 at all. This suggests that previous entries in PSV Circle publications listing this vehicle as Dennis Lancet with a Yeates body were in error.
The largest established Nottingham based coach operator at the time of MTV being a current Nottingham CBC registration was Skill's Motor Coaches and MTV 358 wasn't a vehicle new to them. Neither was it new to Makemson Brothers, the other established Nottingham coach operator of that time. It may have been new to a recently established coach operator, such as R Rainbow, who started trading circa 1949. Other coach operators in Nottingham trading in the 1950s and 1960s, such as Camm's Coaches (Arthur Camm, the founder, was Arthur Skill's brother-in-law), Atlas Coaches and Les Smith, started in business from around 1950 onwards, usually with second hand vehicles.
Coach operators in the various Urban District Council areas surrounding Nottingham usually registered their new vehicles with Nottinghamshire County Council.
It will be interesting to know the origins of MTV 358

Michael Elliott

26/07/13 - 17:38

While those with more technical knowledge than me discuss the bodywork, I am interested in the first operator of the vehicle - "Grange of Ramsey St. Marys". I think that this would be Victor Jack Grange & Cedric Kitchener Grange trading as Grange's Transport Co. of Gordon Villa, Fengate, Peterborough. The only place I have previously come across this operator is in "Notices & Proceedings" for the Eastern Traffic Area circa 1948 when they were very active in applying for new express coach services, usually without success. Typical applications were those made on December 22nd 1947 for services from Ramsey to Leicester via two routes. Premier Travel of Cambridge, The Railway Executive,Eastern Counties and Canhams of Whittlesey all objected and not surprisingly the applications were were refused after a Traffic Commissioners Hearing at Cambridge on April 8th 1948. I have never before seen any reference to their vehicles so I have no idea how large or small an operator they were. Does anybody out there know anything about them?

Nigel Turner

28/07/13 - 07:28

The bodying/rebodying of single deck half cab vehicles with full fronts was quite a common practice for all makes of chassis, but bodying a chassis specifically designed for a full front with a half cab front end seems decidedly perverse. The Lancet J3A standard front end was that shown in the picture above, and was similar to that supplied for the forward control Pax goods model. Fitting a half cab body to a Lancet J3A/J10A/J10C would have required the different front end and bonnet assembly of the well known standard Dennis pattern. Why on earth would anybody follow such a procedure when the thing could have been supplied as the bonneted model in the first place? Like Neville, I should very much like to know.
On the subject of Grange of Ramsey St Mary's, I confess to never having heard of this operator, despite having lived for twenty five years in a nearby village only a fifteen minute car journey away (Holme level crossing permitting; the London - Edinburgh main line is here reduced to one track in each direction, and a packed lunch is recommended when the gates come down). Ramsey St Mary's (originally called "The Herne") is a typical straggly street village some three miles in length on a dead straight and level road across the Black Fens. The idea that this place could be the base for a coach operator is barely credible. In the late 1990s, I was one of a trio of drivers, with two Olympians, running the Ramsey Mereside outstation, from which the Peterborough - Ramsey - Huntingdon service was operated. Much talk was exchanged with local people about the past public transport providers in this very rural landscape, but never once did anybody mention a local operator in Ramsey St Mary's. Nigel has turned up some interesting information about Grange of Fengate, Peterborough, an area with some older residential properties but which is now a major industrial part of Peterborough known as Eastern Industry. Delving further, I found these pages on the internet which appear to deal with the disposal in the mid 1950s of the BRS fleet following denationalisation:
http://archive.commercialmotor.com/1
http://archive.commercialmotor.com/2
http://archive.commercialmotor.com/3
http://archive.commercialmotor.com/4
Mr V. J. Grange of 124 Bridge Street, Peterborough, would then appear to be a dealer in secondhand haulage vehicles. This part of Peterborough, just north of the Nene road bridge, has been totally redeveloped in recent years and bears no resemblance to its 1950s character, so the site cannot now be identified. If this Lancet really was new to Grange, perhaps it was supplied by a dealer in Nottingham; certainly, several new Aces that went to rural operators in various parts of the country carried London registrations. Given the lack of success with express service RSL applications, I can only suppose that the coach was bought for private hire purposes. It would seem that Grange's main interests lay in the haulage sector.

Roger Cox

28/07/13 - 17:42

Michael, the older version of the Yeates body list (BB130) has MTV 358 as body number 164 of 1950. What does the newer version say for that body number? The "inappropriate" registration number isn't that unusual for the early post-war period, by the way. With new vehicles at a premium many dealers placed speculative orders for resale (at a healthy premium) to small operators and some of these vehicles were first taxed by the dealer in the customer's name before delivery.

Neville Mercer

29/07/13 - 07:36

Neville,
The PSV Circle publication B1000 lists body 164 as a Dennis Lancet, chassis number 648J3 with registration number FJF 988, with a C33F body. It was new in July 1949 to Mrs G H Clayton trading as Clayton Brothers 'Royal Blue' of Leicester.
I'm aware of the 'fluid situation' of the late 1940s in respect of the availability of new buses and coaches and registrations of same but can't think of an organisation in Nottingham that would order a Dennis chassis 'on spec'. Yeates were Dennis agents and bodied both new and reconditioned Dennis chassis, and although Yeates started trading in Nottingham the move to Loughborough took place in the 1930s.
There was a coachbuilder in Nottingham, Henry Street & Company, that bodied several new coaches in the 1940s, mainly Crossleys. I'm not very good at identifying 1940s coach bodies; I can manage Duple and Harrington, if it has a dorsal fin, but beyond that I'm in the dark. Did Street's have a 'house style' of coachwork or did they copy other styles; could MTV 358 be a product of Street's and registered by them on completion?

Michael Elliott

29/07/13 - 17:35

All the pictures that I have seen of Street coachwork show very basic and somewhat angular outlines far removed from the more sophisticated construction style in the photo above. Comparison with other examples of Strachan full fronted bodywork convinces me that this is a product of the Acton firm.

Roger Cox

29/07/13 - 17:36

If Yeates started out in Nottingham, it is not impossible that their registered legal address was a Nottingham solicitor or accountant, which could well have been retained after the physical business migrated to Loughborough. This could explain the Nottingham registration.

Stephen Ford

30/07/13 - 07:04

One thing that nobody has yet commented upon is the blanked-off headlights and the working lights attached to the front bumper. Why would the lights not be fitted in the intended apertures, if the body was fitted new to the chassis in the factory?
To me, it looks like a knife & fork conversion, although, to be fair, the rest of the coachwork is very pleasing. But why those lights?

Petras409

26/06/14 - 07:23

Recently the PSV Circle have published a list of PSVs with Nottingham CBC registration marks. MTV 358 is listed, but the information on the body is corrected to Strachan's. Still doesn't explain why a vehicle new to Grange of Ramsey St. Mary has a Nottingham registration mark.
Subsequent owners of MTV 358 are listed as:-
Conway & Griffin (t/a Cosy Coaches) of Grimethorpe
by 09/53; Kirkby of Harthill, West Riding of Yorkshire (a dealer?) and to R E Pryce of Woodville,
Derbyshire by 07/55. The last owner is listed as W H Hylton (t/a Winshill Luxury Coaches) of Winshill,
Staffordshire, with it being scrapped during 1963.

Michael Elliott

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