Occasionally a thread wanders off the actual posted vehicle and reveals some fascinating comments. Here we have one such case the posting was a Manchester Corporation Daimler CVG6 until comments from Roger and Chris brought up the steering and braking characteristics of certain vehicles. The thread then laid dormant for three months until Diesel Dave came along and chipped in his bit, then it became a free for all. Thanks to David Oldfield for such a good title.
23/10/11 - 16:18
When I was a Traffic Clerk at Halifax, I regularly covered the second half of weekday late turns and a full late on Saturdays, very often on the busy 48/49 Brighouse- Hebden Bridge route. This service was the home of the Halifax 30 foot 'deckers, Regent Vs and PD3s. The PD3 had a much more solid feel than the Regent V, but this "solidity" extended to the controls, notably the steering, and the brakes were barely adequate on the Pennine gradients. The PD2 was lighter to steer and easier to stop, as well as being rather livelier. I have driven a great many vehicle types since gaining my PSV licence in February 1965, and, without doubt, the PD3 had the heaviest controls of any of them.
Roger Cox
24/10/11 - 07:32
I quite agree Roger. I always found the PD3s to be heavy and cumbersome and, as you say, it didn't take long for the brakes to become alarming when busy. This wasn't confined to routes with steep gradients - the huge class of Leeds City Transport Roe and MCW bodied ones were majestic and handsome vehicles but brake fade on the very busy north/south network from Moortown and Roundhay to Belle Isle, Middleton, and Dewsbury Road was constantly on our minds. A friend of mine (who died at 39 rest his soul) had his own very dramatic method of avoiding trouble, and used to change down into third gear prior to every stop - the buses had two pedal pneumocyclic transmission but nevertheless he performed each change at high revs to perfection. looking back, I don't suppose this did much for the fuel consumption figures !!
Chris Youhill
20/01/12 - 07:46
I am interested to read the comments from Roger Cox and Chris Youhill regarding the brakes on PD3's as I totally agree their performance gave rise to a fair amount of muscle clenching. My experience comes from Southdown's fleet of "Queen Mary’s" on the Eastbourne - Brighton route which is very hilly, up to 1 in 7, the worst was the descent into Eastbourne, approx a mile with a couple of bends as you entered the built up area followed soon after by a set of traffic lights which found most drivers praying they would be green if not your foot was on the floor and the handbrake up under your armpit and a sweat on. There were a couple of accidents on this hill to my recollection, before my time, one bus coming to rest against a tree just before the lights the other running another 1/2 mile or so toward the town. The only PD2's I drove were vacuum braked models and I recall no problems with them although not on those sort of hills.
Diesel Dave
20/01/12 - 09:16
Welcome Diesel Dave to the company of those who are not afraid to expose the quite serious shortcomings in the PD3 - to be fair a superb model in many ways, but sadly lacking in efficient braking under any really busy usage. I too found that the vacuum braked PD2s were less alarming but even so you needed to be constantly aware that there wasn't much in reserve. I must try not to be biased here, and I know nothing of the mechanical specifications of the models, but I always found that the PD1s were completely trustworthy in the braking department and I can safely say that I never had a scare with one in many years of driving them on heavy work. I mentioned the word "biased" because I loved and admired the PD1s for their "Swiss watch" precision and predictability in clutch behaviour, satisfying gear changes, and delightful "prewar" acoustics, and if properly tuned and fed with adequate fuel (which the Samuel Ledgard ones always were) they were far more spritely than their detractors would have us believe. This was proved by their ability to maintain very tight timetables on hilly and extremely busy routes.
Well, this topic seems to have strayed away from the most honourable and likeable Manchester Corporation Daimlers, but is fascinating nevertheless and all these models were major players in a particularly memorable period of intensive bus services.
Chris Youhill
20/01/12 - 10:26
A Nottingham City Transport driver who had previously worked for Manchester City Transport told me about the terrible squeaking brakes on the PD's he drove saying it was something to do with the compound of the brake shoes.
Roger Broughton
20/01/12 - 12:30
Too true, Roger. Imagine the squealing around Sheffield with all those hills and 30 PD3s and innumerable PD2s.
David Oldfield
20/01/12 - 15:34
I drove Halifax's PD2's and PD3's on a frequent basis from 1973 on. The first bus I ever drove in the Driving School was Weymann-bodied PD2 no. 67, I passed my test on Roe-bodied no.59 and the first bus I ever drove in service was another Weymann-bodied one – no.284.
On the whole the PD2's were livelier than the PD3's, but then they weighed around 8 tons (give or take a hundredweight) and carried 64 seated passengers, whereas the PD3's weighed 8 tons 6cwt (the later 51 to 58 batch), or 8 tons 9cwt (the original 201 to 208 batch) and seated 72. I believe the PD3 had a thicker section chassis frame than the PD2, similar to the export OPD2, though the late model 'rationalised' PD2's (PD2A/44, PD2/47) had the thicker frames also.
The PD3's definitely had a heavier feel, and made more stately progress, though once wound up they were just as fast, but they rode much better due to this extra weight and the longer wheelbase, whereas the PD2's tended to give a choppier ride. I imagine ours were lower geared than some other operators', because of the local territory. Despite the area's severe gradients, and the Department's often tight schedules, I do not recall the brakes ever being a problem, until in early WYPTE days we received a number of Roe-bodied PD3A's from Huddersfield.
These were Pneumocyclic models, and mostly performed very well, obviously having faster gearchanges, and they had very sound bodies, but the brakes squealed appallingly all the time. Stopping on downhill gradients, especially with a decent load on, could lead to some heart-stopping moments. I remember driving one on route 77 Halifax to Bradford via Shelf one morning, descending Manchester Road relatively slowly, pulling onto a layby stop around Spring Mill Street and being unable to stop without running back onto the road again. There were many other incidents like this. I quickly learned to change down in such circumstances, whereas our 'own' Titans were fine and fairly predictable. Squealing brakes did seem to be a feature of many Huddersfield vehicles – maybe they used different linings, or it was the way they set them up. After six months or so of Halifax maintenance the squealing seemed to largely disappear.
Some of my most alarming driving experiences were with the PD3A's. On a very wet Autumn day steadily descending the steep Rochdale Road, Greetland whilst working a dinnertime works special from the Bondina works to Stainland, I was in a low gear and travelling in a straight line. I braked gently and the bus just spun completely round in the road, until almost facing back up the hill. I had to perform a several point turn to get it facing the right way again and then continued. Strangely, none of the passengers said a word when they got off – presumably they were all in shock !
On another occasion I was working the 08:10 Route 3 to Hungerhill Estate and was descending the lower end of Beechwood Road near Holmfield. It was Winter, and the temperature was dropping rapidly. Black ice was forming everywhere. I stopped before the last steeper stretch down to the T-junction with Shay Lane, and decided to get out and check the surface more closely before committing myself. My conductor Ken Clegg and I shuffled down the road, Ken fell on his backside, and I could hardly stand up. We decided it was too dicey to carry on, then we turned to walk back, expecting the Leyland to be up the road where we had left it, only to find that it was right behind us, sliding slowly down the road. How I managed to clamber back into the cab without being run over I don't know, but there was no choice now and we slithered down the road and across the junction, coming to rest inches from the opposite wall.
What's all this to do with Manchester Daimlers ? Nothing. Just going with the flow. Better shut up now.
John Stringer
20/01/12 - 16:26
Regarding the brakes on PD3's, Northern had quite a few of them, and at Percy Main we had twelve AFT 924 to 35, they all had the standard square Leyland speedo with 0 bottom left and 60 bottom right, one of them '234' would go right round to the 'P' on the MPH, but stopping it was an entirely different matter, as one or two nearly found to their cost.
Ronnie Hoye
20/01/12 - 16:29
I well remember Huddersfield town centre being a cacophony of squealing Corporation PD3a's in the 1960's yet strangely I don't remember the JOC PD2a's squealing the same. Perhaps it's just my memory. Again, nowt to do wi' Manchester Daimlers though!
Eric
21/01/12 - 06:10
Fascinating tales, John, especially the second one! A bus with a life of its own, eh? Scary
Chris Hebbron
30/10/12 - 16:03
Just to return this to it's roots via squealing brakes.
Manchester and Salford both employed almost identical MCW bodied Daimler CVG6's on their joint routes 95/96 on the relatively flat land in S Manchester in the 1950's and 60's. Neither were great performers in terms of speed and if you were planning on getting to town for an appointment you were usually better off waiting for a PD2 on route 40. But I digress, my question is why did Salford's Daimler squeal like fury every time they braked whereas Manchester's did not?
Orla Nutting
31/10/12 - 14:40
When the Tong Road tram route was converted to bus operation in 1956 Leeds used all Leyland PD2s on the routess. I can still recall lying in bed two streets from the nearest stop and hearing them come to a squealing halt. This coupled with the noise from the shunting of coal trains for emptying meant few round our way needed an alarm clock!
Chris Hough
11/03/13 - 07:30
I only just came across this thread from last year, Can I answer Orla's question regarding Salford Daimlers (CRJ's & FRJ's ) I was working in the traffic office at Salford City Transport's Frederick Road offices in the mid 60's. I too had observed
this brake squealing and when I enquired of the Engineering Manager - a Mr
Brougham, I was told that in order to maximise rear drum shoe usage, wooden blocks were made up and were placed between the brake shoe backs and the actuators to obtain full use of the brake lining materials, these would come into contact with the drums and would cause the squealing sounds. At a young 19 years of age, I had no reason to doubt the answer I was given.
Moving on to PD3's, I once drove Bolton 122 (a pneumo cyclic bus) on the Trans
Pennine rally and decending in Bradford experienced the brake fade mentioned in the post earlier, I even got to the point of brake pedal on the stop, with great alarm and much sweating, heaving on the handbrake to assist stopping - phew! them were the days!
Mike Norris
12/03/13 - 08:48
I am most grateful for that information on the squealing characteristics of Salford's CVGs. That question had puzzled me for over 50 years!
Orla Nutting
12/03/13 - 13:13
There has been much very informed and interesting comment on squealing and fading Leyland brakes and I have experienced this aplenty while driving and conducting (and riding on) them myself. I believe from mechanically involved friends that many, if not all, Leyland PDs were fitted with "anti - squeal bands" round the outsides of the drums. This worthy but largely ineffective measure was presumably intended to alter the "musical frequency" of the brake components.
My good friend Paul Haywood will no doubt recall my first ever encounter with a PD3. We worked at Wallace Arnold where relatively few drivers has "all types double deck" licences and occasional staff shortages occurred at the associated Kippax and District. I was asked to work an early turn on a Saturday morning and Paul agreed to travel on the first trip for what was bound to me an adventure as I didn't even fully know the route. We arrived at the Kippax Depot to find WA's first PD3, 6237 UB, waiting, along with an elderly rather brusque conductress who surveyed us with barely concealed dis-satisfaction. Whether or not she was kindly to the passengers, or took a sadistic pleasure in raiding the coffers of West Riding and Leeds City Transport, we shall never know, but she scooped on board everybody in sight and I daren't think how many were on board as we left Halton for the long descent towards Leeds. There is a stop half way down the long Halton Hill and the old girl optimistically rang the bell in good time for someone to alight. Well, that was my baptism of fire, for the maximum application of their brake pedal caused an incredible symphony roughly on the lines of "eeek eeek eeek, oooh oooh oooh, eeerm eeerm eeerm" as the giant mercifully pulled up well past the stop. Add to this the shuddering clutch and the "rubbery clunk" gearbox behaviour and I'd already begun to dislike the vehicle, and the next one in the duty, an even newer PD3 with later design of tin front was little different.
I must thank Chris H also for his graphic description of the dismal sales figures for alarm clocks in the Tong Road area of Leeds after the withdrawn trams were replaced by PD2s - mind you the passengers on those were distracted from the brakes by the continuous rattling of every one of the sliding windows, which were of the worst design ever.
Chris Youhill
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