As a dyed-in-the-wool fan of buses from the 1940s to 1960s (ie almost everything half-cab), I struggle to be enthusiastic about today's buses. Now that I can flash my "Wrinkle Pass" I find myself travelling on buses more than ever since the 1970s, but I despair at the lack of character of the new ones. Can anyone point me in the direction of anything that sounds, looks and rides as well as our old pals? I have a good friend with infinitely more experience of driving and riding buses than me, who bemoans the poor build-quality of the "Wrattling Wrights" even though I quite like their appearance. I suspect that one of the contributing factors is the poor driving skills of today's foot-brake and accelerator merchants. It seems that the easier the bus is to drive, the worse the ride quality for the passenger. No doubt - someday - enthusiasts not yet born will travel miles to ride on a Wright-bodied Volvo, so I suppose it's all in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. Am I missing something? Am I beyond hope? Is there a Classic Bus of Tomorrow out there?
Paul Haywood
I have every sympathy with the dilemma in which my friend Paul finds himself, and can assure him that he is not "missing anything" or "without hope." He is, like me, an ardent supporter of the view, on the principle that "the proof of the pudding is in the eating", very few if any modern vehicles give an acceptable level of strength in construction. It is a poor show when vehicles only weeks or months old are exhibiting visible movement in entire body sides/windows/floors and suspension inadequacies or malfunction, and not by any means exclusively due to "bad roads." Additionally the apologies for "seats" on which we're now obliged to travel are the last straw. In order to sweep this scandalous situation under the carpet operators in general depend on zany striking expensive colour schemes, interior as well as outside, - the dignified term livery rarely applies nowadays - and marketing ploys such as route branding and coloured "lines" which largely go over the heads of disinterested travellers.
Now to the question of future classic buses - well of course the idea that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" must carry some weight here. From two recent generations though my choice would be the Daimler/Leyland Fleetline which had superb roadholding, even when heavily laden, and a creditable and civilised performance. Moving on a stage, I can see no meaningful rival for the wonderful Bristol, yes Bristol originally, Leyland, Volvo Olympian in all its many versions. Here again roadholding - so very important - has in my view never been surpassed by any other and the variety of engine/transmission combinations quite amazing. I have no intention to dismiss all other contenders, and the incredibly tough Leyland National (Mark 2 especially) deserves a chance as does the much maligned, on the cruel and unfounded "bread van" slur, MCW/Optare Metrorider in its three main sizes of 23,27 or 31 seats.
So Paul is not alone in his despair - I too think daily of the good old days - not a pair of rose tinted glasses anywhere - and wonder how on earth it has all gone wrong.
Chris Youhill
Even in these columns I have been known to use the phrase "characterless sewing machines". There is no modern bus that I have knowledge of which could remotely be called a classic (of today or the future). Dare I say, the last one was the TRCTL11 Leyland Tiger and possibly the Leyland National 2? Volvos, Scanias and DAFs of recent years and on the GB market have never had any character. Indeed, there is probably more built in obsolescence today than there was in the days of rot box Allegros, Marinas and Vivas. That is to say that, although there are some superbly engineered vehicles on the road today, they do not have even half the character of vehicles of yesteryear and, good as they are, they will not last as long as the rally classics running today. Today's best touring coaches, by far, are the Setras and Van Hools. Will they still be around in 50 years? [Doubtful.] In their defence, Wrights bodies are the RR of service buses - which brings us to Paul's other point. The standard of driving. As a part-time/casual driver whose main profession is not driving, I put myself through training and got a stick licence. I was already an advanced motorist and thoroughly enjoy driving and take a pride in it. From experience, two things occur to me, you don't have to think and read the road ahead when driving an automatic to anywhere near the extent that you do with a manual gearbox. I had a ministry examiner who, I felt, examined me almost to advanced standard. There is a huge shortage of drivers and the big groups train and examine their own. Is it fanciful to think borderline (bad) drivers slip through as a consequence? [How's that for controversial?] Sloppy driving will definitely loosen a few bolts, even on a Wrights bus - aided by the appalling state of the roads at the moment.
David Oldfield
p.s. I confess my reply reflected my single deck bias. If we are talking earlier double deck vehicles I would nominate the AN68 version of the Atlantean but would also thoroughly agree with Chris about the Olympian.
08/07/11
I have to admit I'm not a bus specialist like many of the visitors to this site, but I find it interesting for the nostalgia and old photos.
On the question of future classics, it may be stating the blindingly obvious but "nostalgia only happens to the past". so I'm not sure you can identify how the future will view buses (or any item) of the present day. In 20 years time people may look back more fondly on things which are now dismissed as everyday items, because in the future most of those things which we see all the time will have disappeared and there will only be a few survivors to remind everyone of the good old days - if they ever really existed.
Back in the 1950s and 60s did people then look on the average everyday buses as future classics? The various models and designs which are now regarded with cosy nostalgia were probably just accepted as part of the daily scenery and taken for granted. I doubt if anyone would've predicted the interest which has grown up around what at the time was, to most people, just "a bus".
At the moment we are now looking at 2011 buses on the roads and seeing them as 1955 people were doing when saw a Bedford OB or a Guy/Dennis/Panther/Lodekka.
It would be interesting to know what would've been said on the subject if the internet had existed in 1955!
Kevin Chamberlain
09/07/11
You’re absolutely correct, Kevin. Even as a kid, Dad would say, “.....it’s only a bus.”
History is the only arbiter. I am a professional musician/music teacher and have a number of “bon mots” for students. One is that there are only two sorts of music – good and bad, regardless of style. Another is that we only know who the great composers and great music are after a period of time – I always suggest a hundred years.
The same can be said of nostalgia for classic buses, cars and lorries. Quality + Popularity enter them in the early stakes. Longevity and numbers in preservation and on the rally scene are other factors. Even so, as Chris and I have already said, it is highly unlikely that many 21st century vehicles will reach stages 3 & 4 (longevity and preservation).
David Oldfield
09/07/11
I would like to nominate the Optare Solo as a Classic Bus of tomorrow. It has been in production basically unchanged for thirteen years and effectively rewrote the design for small buses. They are the small bus of choice for Operators large and small throughout the Country. Optare have a design flair lacking in almost all competitors. The ride quality is excellent and Optare are not afraid to offer a choice of engines and transmissions. The original 8.5m version was first extended, then shortened and made narrower followed by an even shorter version. Truly a bus for all reasons.
Ian Wild
09/07/11
Double deck- Neoplan Skyliner in 4-axle configuration
Single Deck- Setra (which?- perhaps any...?)
Or are coaches cheating?
& a bit older- a Bristol VR?
Joe
10/07/11
Joe, I agree about Setras and even possibly Neoplan on grounds of quality - but they're still rather characterless. [.....and before anyone says anything, I'm a huge Setra fan and I drive Setras and Neoplans regularly, if not frequently.]
David Oldfield
11/07/11
I feel quite guilty at failing to nominate for a place the worthy Bristol VR. These were attractively and sensibly designed (ECW particularly), performed well and were a treat to travel in and to drive. Particularly commendable was the very effective interior shielding of the engine compartment - lower saloon fumes were an absolute rarity with the VR.
Chris Youhill
11/07/11
The older Skyliners are surely full of character: including interesting handling characteristics on French cambers when loaded: seemingly endless torque: fascinating suspension geometry: over the top perhaps leaky front windows.... the one I know best was ex-SUT, but the one to preserve must be one of the Swedish 4-axle versions with luggage trailer (a sort of roadtrain) which I have seen in France proudly proclaiming along its length... "Froggy Tours"!
Joe
11/07/11
.....and of course, what are we talking about? The chassis/power plant or the body (or a complete integral vehicle). I've not begun to bore on bodywork yet - but it's interesting to refer to the Samuel Ledgard Guy Arab I stream. Pretty damning about Pickering - but obviously well deserved. History and hindsight do sift out the gems from the dogs - the dogs will never last the course the first time round, let alone into preservation. (Hence the large number of coach-builders who disappeared after the post war bulge, leaving only the quality builders.)
David Oldfield
12/07/11
I'm quite sure that the Dennis Dart/Plaxton Pointer combination will be regarded as a classic in the future, simply because everybody bought them. And unlike the Leyland National before it, they didn't buy it because of monopolistic compulsion but because they wanted to.
Peter Williamson
12/07/11
Thanks for the fascinating replies and observations. As I suspected, there are numerous possible candidates for a Classic Bus of Tomorrow but, of course, we won't know until tomorrow comes. As David says, the dogs don't last the course. However, there were a few dogs which, because of their eccentric designs, had character (another aspect missing in today's bus fleets). I'm referring to West Riding's Wulfrunians and CIE's weird Bombardiers. Both became technical dead-end dogs but examples of both have survived into preservation. By chance their common denominator was the Leyland Atlantean. Guy needed to make an alternative to them in the early 1960s, and CIE had had enough of the Atlantean by the 1980s (so even they could be classed as dogs by that time). Like Ian, I also admire Optare for their design flair, but I doubt whether the early Solos will stand the test of time judging by the state of them in my area. I also agree with Chris that it's incredible so many almost new buses should show early signs of body movement - it can't all be down to bad roads and hard suspension. By amazing co-incidence, three days ago, on one of Keighley & District's 2008 Volvo/Wright Eclipses, my (non-transport enthusiast) friend, spontaneously and without prompting, expressed shock at the rattling and banging we were experiencing over "normal"¯ road surfaces. Perhaps it's the desire to make everything as lightweight as possible to save fuel (which is probably counterbalanced by the incredible thirst of most modern non-hybrid buses). So.......some chassis may become classics and some bodies may become classics, but what combination? Now, if only Bristol/ECW had survived.........
Paul Haywood
12/07/11
Two saloons stand out from the pack to me Both are Alexander bodies from the nineties and both were on a number of chassis They were respectively the PS bodywork that proved a willing workhorse for Stagecoach and the Strider body on Scania and Volvo chassis for a number of operators. In many cases the standards of maintenance rather than build quality determines the aging of a vehicle and even in the big groups this can vary from depot to depot. Stagecoach in Lancaster spring to mind with well cared for elderly buses on regular all day service. Some of the stock is actually third hand but Joe Public would not notice. Two of the worst recent buses for rattles were the Leyland National in MK1 form and its successor the Lynx both of which could rattle for Europe!
Chris Hough
13/07/11
There was a bit of a non sequitur over the comment about the National. It WAS forced on operators - who nearly all would have preferred the RE. By common consent the 510 engine was appalling but equally it had a bomb proof body of superb construction. This is why I nominated the Mk 2 version with the engines operators would have preferred, the 0680, 6HLXB and TL11. [.....in effect a MkIV RE?]There is a lot of merit in nominating the STEP Dart with Pointer body - again of "National" strength of structure. I'm not convinced, in terms of market, that there was much more choice than when the National was offered.The Step Dart had a proper chassis frame. All low floor vehicles - Dart SLF, Enviro Dart, Wrights Volvo and Optare Excels - have sub frames in an integral form, but no chassis. This is why, the longer they are, the more they twist and flex. This was brought home to me when recently driving a Scania/Irizar which just felt very loose and on the verge of falling apart. The driving sub frame and the drive (engine/gearbox) subframe are connected by the body. But ask any operator of a 10 year old Scania/Irizar and they will tell you that the rear subframe sags - the weight dragging down near the emergency door and cracking windows and the bodywork. A friend has four. Believe me, I speak the truth. Wouldn't happen with a proper chassis, though.
David Oldfield
15/07/11
There will be classic buses of tomorrow. The interest will be generated by those of the next generations. My 12-year old grandson is showing quite keen interest, but identifies with modern stock, not old things like Bristol VRs! A little while ago, our local operator placed in service new Volvo B7RLE's with Wright bodywork. His greatest thrill was to ride in one of these, sitting in the front seat over the wheel-arch when it was just a few weeks old. For me, that kind of thrill was being driven (with another enthusiast friend) by a kind Southdown driver in a then brand-new Harrington Cavalier / Leyland Leopard from Brighton's Edward Street into Pool Valley. It still smelt new, and was the height of luxury then, with only 28 seats for touring purposes. Time and nostalgia adds it's perspectives. In that era, I loved Leyland TD3s, 4s and 5s. Leyland PD2s were nasty modern things. But I grew to appreciate PD2s and 3s. When Leyland Nationals arrived in Southdown territory, I thought "how ugly" (especially the cheap looking interior, and the rattly sounding engine). These days, I quite like the things, but as others have expressed, they sound much better with a "proper" engine - the 680! I have never driven a bus or worked in the bus industry, so my comments are only as an observer over the last 50-odd years. So I can't comment on build quality or ease of maintenance, reliability etc. I think that the Irizar PB is a lovely coach to look at - stands out from the rest, like the Harrington Cavalier or Burlingham Seagull did in their day. But I can understand comments by others about the way they are built causing problems. Isn't history repeating itself? How many of that new generation of rear-engined single decks in the 60s/70s (Panthers, Panther Cubs, Swifts, Roadliners) have body problems, especially when the fashionable dual doorway was included in the spec? This group of chassis had their chassis/engine problems, but some body builders had a contribution to make, too! They were probably not the classics of their time for anyone. Anyone seen a TD4 lately?
Michael Hampton
16/07/11
For a time, I was a member of "The Anglia Bus Forum". On there , a young lad named Jamie Armstrong raved about the Optare Spectra double decker, particularly those operated by the very smart and efficient Norfolk Green concern. Norfolk Green applies names to its buses, and, today, in Hunstanton, I saw a Spectra carrying the legend on its front panel, "Jamie Armstrong - the greatest fan of the Optare Spectra in Britain, and possibly the World". I thought that this was a wonderful touch, and, perhaps, gives some indication as to how Norfolk Green has manifestly succeeded where the big operators have pulled out.
Roger Cox
16/07/11
.....but don’t you think that Norfolk Green is a classic operator in the best tradition of our favoured bye-gone era?
David Oldfield
17/07/11
I entirely agree, David. I visit south Lincolnshire often, and frequently use the 505 service between Spalding and Kings Lynn, a route that the old Lincolnshire company abandoned as unprofitable. Norfolk Green now operates the route on a 20 minute headway, with an impeccably turned out fleet in a neat, traditional style livery, and smart staff. This compares favourably with my local Stagecoach service in Huntingdonshire which runs through similar settlement patterns, but on an "hourly" frequency with two hour gaps at certain times during the day. Norfolk Green now seems to have recently taken over from First Eastern Counties the entire provision of bus services between Kings Lynn and Hunstanton, assuredly to the benefit of the travelling public. As you say, a classic bus operator - would that there were more.....
Roger Cox
17/07/11
Roger and David, you are so right, and look no further than Bourne in Lincolnshire for a further shining example - the wonderful "DELAINE" !!
Chris Youhill
17/07/11
Chris, you are absolutely right. The Delaine buses are always immaculate, and the cleanliness of the depot in Bourne is remarkable - you could eat your dinner off the floor. I wouldn't recommend anyone to try that at the Stagecoach garage in Lincoln Road, Peterborough.
Roger Cox
18/07/11
I was interested to see the comments about Norfolk Green. Now they have quite a large fleet of Optare Solos.............I rest my case!!
Ian Wild
20/08/11
Several contributors have mentioned the Optare Solo as a future classic. I agree that it is a vehicle that looks "different" from the rest in it's class, and refreshingly so. It deserves to be a classic for future generations. There are three used locally, allocated to a route which I frequently use. I am not greatly fond of the high-pitched transmission noise, but they are definitely preferable to the fall-back Mercedes minibus that sometimes appears instead! (But I could be biased). However, only one (No ***51) has comfortable seats. The other two (***77 and ***78) have very hard seats. If one is forced to sit down quickly as the driver pulls away, the effect is "sensational", and not a pleasant one at that. I just wonder whether in year 2000 when these two were built, someone at Optare was having a clear out. Somewhere in the depths of a store, a craftsman found a set of utility seats, unused since put together c.1944 by the Roe predecessors. Perhaps there was a shortage of new seats that year, and a shop foreman decided that, rather than waste two sets of perfectly good wooden utility seats, a layer of foam and moquette was cut and placed over them. Installation into Nos ***77 and ***78 followed, and everyone at Optare was satisfied by a cleared store room, and another delivery on time. This is of course purely a fantasy on my part - however my posterior reminds me of a possible truth in this every time I ride on one of the pair, and great relief if the third member ***51 turns up instead! Also, should past or present staff of Optare, or their Roe predecessors read this, please be assured that no offence is intended to the workmanship of either firm's employees. This is just a light-hearted reflection intended for a moment's smile. And if anyone is going to preserve a classic Optare Solo, please choose 51 rather than 77/78!
Michael Hampton
20/08/11
Michael. Regrettably in these days of choice, the choice is often the cheapest option and very often the seats are a good place to economise (and sometimes weight saving is used as an excuse). The most uncomfortable ride I have ever had was on an all Scania decker in Central London last year – from Oxford Street to Shepherd Bush – with just the same type of utility seats! Unfortunately coaches are not immune. A very popular type of seat – a cheap option(?) – is almost unbearably uncomfortable. Fitted to long distance and touring coaches! F****a should hang their heads in shame!
David Oldfield
18/05/12 - 08:47
Reading the various comments and opinions on classics of the future is very enjoyable whether or not I agree with them. I retired 9 years ago after 42 years driving a considerable number of different types of bus and coach for Eastbourne Corporation, Southdown and Lincolnshire Road Car. Modern day vehicles and drivers leave me unimpressed, driving standards seem to have gone downhill badly of late with the right foot either flat on the throttle or hard on the brake until the bus stops with a uncomfortable jerk, are they not taught to ease the pressure on the pedal at the last moment. I appreciate that the automatic gear box nearly always drops into low gear just at the time you least want it to which doesn't help but I try to give a congratulatory comment to any driver who does give a decent ride.
I can't really see any modern day vehicles becoming real classics like the Leyland PD's or AEC Regents but logic says some will.
My personal favourites would have to be for double deckers, AEC Regent Mark III and Mark V with honourable mentions for the PD2 and the AN68 Atlantean ( as long as it did not have an ECW body ). For single deckers, AEC Reliance and Leyland Tiger Cub, the Mk2 Leyland National and with some reservation the Leyland Leopard. For coaches again the AEC Reliance, the Leyland Tiger TL11, and the Leyland Leopard with 0.680 engine, the Bristol RELL with reservations again with 0.680 engine. The reasons are various and purely personal and I suspect likely to alter over the years to come.
Among those I didn't enjoy very much, all Bristols, were the LH and LHS very rough and heavy with poor suspension, the VR with ECW body with a very cramped cab area and rain leaks along the top of the windscreen that almost needed another set of wipers on the inside, rain also found it's way into the destination box something you found out next time you went to change the blinds also the wheel arches were prone to corrosion and let water into the bottom deck. The manual gearbox RE was awkward mainly due to spacing of it's gear ratios which had a large gap between, I believe, 2nd and 3rd gears, having criticised so much I must add Bristols saving grace was always excellent and very controllable brakes.
I fully agree with the remarks regarding the garish exterior and interior colour schemes that prevail today, the lines of which seem to deliberately clash with the lines of the bodywork on the outside at least. The lines of the bodywork themselves being unimpressive with short window bays seemingly fitted in to fill spaces as and when necessary.
It appears to me that the increase in weight of todays buses is far greater than the increase in size would justify, also engines have got smaller and much more frantic sounding. Thank you for (hopefully) listening to my nostalgia I can put away my rose tinted glasses now.
David Lennard
17/11/12 - 08:55
It's very interesting reading the generally negative comments about modern vehicles. Looking back over the last 80 years or so since buses emerged from the high framed chassis, open top/open stair double decker and charabanc single deck era into what might be called definitive PSVs, there have been countless instances of bodies and chassis which have, in their time, been as bad as many of the current batch and those of the recent past yet are now regarded as classics. Whilst the term classic should encompass the looks, durability and all round reliability which reader here wouldn't call a late 1940s all Crossley DD42 a classic? Yet the type was a disaster which killed the company. The Panther Cub was a Manchester inspired nonsense but few enthusiasts would spurn a ride on one of the ex MCTD PRV versions which had both looks and a rarity value, let alone spurn a chance to own one.
Then, of course, there's the Wulfrunian - a classic failure if you will but nonetheless, like many classic cars which are now cherished yet never attained popularity or reliability, many an enthusiast would pay an arm and a leg to have one.
My list from the late 1950s to date would be:
Leyland Atlantean/MCW - for changing the shape of the double decker
Bristol FLF/ECW - the epitome of the Lodekka series.
Bristol VRT/ECW - understated style and elegance
Atlantean/Fleetline/Mancunian - Ralph Bennett's design reset the standard for double decker design for more than a generation.
Bristol RELL/ECW - once the curved front screen was introduced this was both a looker and a real workhorse.
From the early 1970s until early this century things get difficult. The Leyland National, SELNEC/GMT Standard, the MCW Metrobus and Dennis Dart for various reasons, not least of which would be quantity produced, should qualify but I have difficulty in finding enthusiasm for anything built in the period.
In terms of qualification by historic importance to the industry, there would have to be room for a bread van conversion and some form of Mercedes would have to be the choice.
My next choice would be the Scania/Irizar Century but that might be on looks alone.
Then, if only for bringing curves back to the British built double decker, ADL's Enviro 400.
Perhaps another ADL product will become a classic for being a British bus to re-open markets around the world, some of which were once captive Leyland/AEC/Daimler users, and for forging new business in areas where British buses were once only seen when employed as sightseeing novelties.
The ADL Enviro 500 has many satisfied customers and the new version with the 400 front end is continuing the success. My cousin who is Director of Bus Operations for GO Transit in Toronto has 22 of the original design and 25 of the new version and they have had a dramatic impact on the routes on which they are used in terms of load shifting, passenger appeal and profitability.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/11/12 - 10:02
Phil is a very recent contributor to these pages, but obviously brings a wealth of experience and knowledge. Will the rest of the regulars forgive my presumption if I say to him "Welcome"? Interestingly enough, Irizar have always sold on design flair but the build quality has been as bad as the worst Duple and Plaxton offerings (320/340; Paramount; Premier/Excalibur). Rumours are that this has improved no end with the current PB a i6 models. Time will tell.
David Oldfield
17/11/12 - 13:09
Thanks for your kind comments and "welcome" David.
Whilst I've not been a part of the industry, I've followed it from a very early age, been in sales and management positions where I've supplied the industry with either parts or ancillary products and regularly instigated private hires for hiking clubs and later employers.
I've driven a good few PSVs under L plates and regret, as someone that regards good driving as both an art and a science, never having taken a course and the test but time and lack of economic necessity to do so always got in the way.
The largest vehicles I've regularly driven have been 3.5 and 7.5 ton vans for a variety of reasons and, after many forays around central London and other cities in such, I've every respect for people who have, or had, to drive buses for a living - especially in days gone by.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/11/12 - 16:08
Lots of similarities, then, Phil - except that I DO have a PSV/PCV, which I have had for many years. This means that I have had the pleasure of driving both preserved and modern vehicles "in service". I forgot to mention that the 33' Mancunian is one of my favourites too.
David Oldfield
18/11/12 - 08:22
I once went for an interview at MCW (as it was by then officially known) at their Washwood Heath factory. Afterwards I was shown around both the railway rolling stock and bus sections by a senior engineer. There were just two bus orders going through - AEC Swifts for LT and Mancunians for SELNEC. I commented on the imposing styling of the latter, and was most surprised at his openness in being far from complimentary about them - insisting that the design fell way below MCW's normal standards but that someone else's design had been more or less foisted on to them !
I later worked at SELNEC and actually thought they looked a lot better in their sunglow orange and white than they did in the white and red of MCTD. Interestingly a batch was also ordered by Salford City Transport, but delivered to SELNEC, and I rode on them from time to time as I was based at Frederick Road Depot. The destination indicators were of the Salford layout and I seem to remember the seats were upholstered in green material. I often wondered what livery they would have had if they had been delivered to SCT.
John Stringer
18/11/12 - 12:22
The comments from MCW are interesting. They built one batch of 60 on Fleetline chassis for SELNEC against an MCTD order. 34 Atlanteans, ordered at the same time, went to Park Royal for their bodies.
MCW actually received the contract in 1967 for the first batch of 94 (47 each Atlantean and Fleetline) 33ft models but it was sublet to Park Royal on the grounds of MCW being too busy. Park Royal delivered these in 1969.
There may well have been some sort of falling out with MCW after the 60 Fleetlines were ordered because the final order in 1969 for 94 Fleetline deliveries for 1971/2 deliveries was split between Park Royal (60) and East Lancs (34). When the East Lancs fire scuppered the plans Park Royal was asked to complete the whole batch but couldn't cope.
Historically, MCW as MCTD's once preferred body builder would have been asked to step in but Park Royal arranged for jigs to go to Roe at Leeds and they built the extra 34 which were widely acknowledged as the best built off all.
The Salford Atlantean order may well have been a result of "politics" by the incoming SELNEC administration. Their eggs were firmly in the new SELNEC "Standard" basket based on the not yet ready AN68 chassis. Salford had ordered Atlantean chassis and the body contract would have presumably gone to Park Royal who had bodied the previous batch of two door vehicles to their own design.
Standardisation was the buzz word of the time at Peter House and Devonshire St and it seems that some influence was brought to bear to have the Salford vehicles built by MCW along with the MCTD ordered Fleetlines, though why the green interiors and the indicator layout survived is lost in the mists of time.
As for the colour scheme Salford may have employed, there has been much conjecture but no-one to my knowledge has ever come up with a definitive answer - or any indication if, given the date of delivery, anyone had ever given the matter any thought.
I agree that the Mancunians looked better in the SELNEC scheme. When GMT introduced its brown orange and white scheme, the few Mancunians that appeared in the scheme looked very unbalanced.
Phil Blinkhorn
20/11/12 - 05:11
My favourite for the classic of the future is the Roe bodywork fitted to Hull's 258 to 357 from 1969 to 1974. The first forty had H43/28D bodies with rest being H43/29F. Nos 258 to 317 were PDR1A/1 , the rest AN68/1R.
The styling marked Roe's finally coming to terms with rear engine chassis designs. They caused a stir so much so that my boss, an architect in Hull City Council remarked on their design to me considering them to be such a departure from Roe's previous efforts. No fancy standards or peaks but an elegant design that looks right.
North Hull was never the same when they were withdrawn.
Malcolm J Wells
20/11/12 - 14:03
May I suggest a couple, please ?
The first, and not for any specific engineering or design reasons, but I believe that Ribble's Atlantean-based Gay Hostess fleet should be considered for the 'outside-the-box' (hate this phrase, but alternatives ?) thinking in introducing a new approach to longer distance bus travel....
The second, and is there anybody in the world who would risk to argue against, has to be the BMMO C5 - to my mind the absolute epitome of British bus and coach engineering and design....I think it was all pretty much downhill after the C5....
Stuart C
20/11/12 - 16:57
Stuart, the only reason not to list the C5 as a classic was its lack of availability to the market as a whole.
In every respect the epitome of what an express coach should have been in its time it would surely have needed to be run in service by more than its own maker, with all the possibilities for problems to arise far from the caring hands of BMMO's own engineers, for it to truly prove itself as a classic.
Nonetheless, there was nothing in its time, and little since, that has challenged the concept of a coach in the way BMMO both set out to do and achieved.
Phil Blinkhorn
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