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The evolution of the British double deck bus began with the stagecoach lines of the 18th century. The "engine" (horses) was at the front, the driver sat at the front of the vehicle with a clear view of the road, passengers sat inside and on top (both terms still in use in the 21st century) and the guard (who later became the conductor except, for some strange reason in Manchester where he was always a guard) looked after the security of the vehicle and made sure the fares had been paid.
By the late 19th century when municipalities and private companies started providing urban area public transport services on a regular, timetabled basis both the horse bus and horse tram had developed from the stagecoach on similar lines. The horses and drivers were still there but the vehicle itself had grown with rows of seats on top and inside and, instead of clambering up a ladder to reach the top - not a problem with a stage coach with infrequent stops at inns, but an impossibility for a frequently stopping bus or tram - passengers generally accessed the top deck by a curved staircase at the rear.
When the 20th century saw the motor bus enter service the only difference was that an engine replaced the horses at the front - often in front of the driver. Between 1900 and 1920 the design evolved. The driver's position moved from behind the engine to the right hand side. His cab developed a windshield and, later, side screens and a door. The open top deck was fairly useless in rain, even with the apron type covers provided for each seat - often repositories for litter or worse - so a roof became standard with side windows. Last to be covered was the staircase.
By 1930 a "modern" double decker bus resembled the vehicle that was to be standard for the next 30 years and was only to be made obsolete by the Bus Grant regime of 1968.
Once the upgraded vehicle outline had become fixed operators looked for ways of maximising both profit and safety. With a maximum width of 7 foot 6 inches and a length limited to 26 foot the capacity was limited to around 52 seats. Under various Road Traffic Acts the responsibility for passenger safety was split between the driver and conductor with the latter being responsible for making sure the passengers were safely on the vehicle before giving the signal to start and the former having to make sure there was no one on the pavement trying to board before setting off.
This led to the development of the bell or buzzer system but it was by no means foolproof and the Manchester invention of a convex mirror at the top of the stair, whilst it removed the need for the conductor to be on the platform each time the bus reached a stop, was not 100% safe, especially with a tight schedule, frequent stops, a full bus and passengers trying to make their way up and down stairs in the average 600 yards between stops.
Many operators realised that if the entrance to the vehicle was in full sight of the driver, safe starting and stopping could be the sole responsibility of the driver leaving the conductor to concentrate on fare collection and safety once passengers were on board. Throughout the 1930s a number of forward entrance vehicles appeared. Northern General, Midland Red and a small number of customers of Roe bodybuilders of Leeds not to mention, in Manchester, Maynes all had forward entrance vehicles where the entrance was immediately behind the engine and easily viewed by the driver. Whilst similar to the vehicles that appeared from the late 1950s they lacked power doors, only a few having a sliding door (which had to be operated by the conductor, rather negating the ethos), most having just an opening.
Other operators such as Blackpool and Barton Transport decided to maintain the split in responsibility but added to safety - at the expense of available seating - by specifying centre doors which had to be operated by the conductor but had the bonus of guaranteeing the safety of passengers as the vehicle could not move off until the doors were closed. Manchester tried a Blackpool TD5 as late as 1945 but found the reduction in seating and the time spent at stops too long for its intensive city schedules.
AEC of Southall went further and in 1932 offered London General Omnibus and the industry in general its Q type single decker. This was truly revolutionary. It did away with the front engine placing the driver ahead (just) of the front wheels. The engine was placed longitudinally behind the front wheels. Apart from the very first example, the bus was equipped with a pre-selector gearbox though other mod cons were lacking.
In 1933 AEC built a double decker version with a longer front overhang allowing a front entrance opposite the driver. There was no passenger door so the driver was exposed on his nearside to the elements (perhaps not too much of a problem at a time when many of the company's buses had open cabs) and no heaters - the tendency for the petrol engined versions to temporarily spurt fire from the carburettor was not designed as a replacement! The stairs rose in a rearward curve over the engine and the very modern looking vehicle achieved 56 seats.
Birmingham took a demonstrator and Bolton, Crosville, Hull, Bradford, Leeds, Westcliff-on-Sea, Birkenhead, and Newcastle-upon-Tyne bought one each with two going to London Transport in 1934. The Country Bus division took two petrol engined versions with power operated centre sliding doors and Green Line took a 27 foot long diesel version (it had three axles to allow for the extra length) a centre entrance - not a problem on the express coach services for which it was intended - and it entered service from Romford in 1937.
Other operators tried the diesel engined Q double decker but it didn't achieve true series production and was withdrawn from the catalogue in 1937. The single deck version did achieve moderate sales as a bus and a coach - London Transport alone taking 222 in various versions for its different divisions.
The Q had all sorts of problems caused by its revolutionary design. Weight and balance problems due to the position of the engine caused the rear axle to be set as far back as possible and the drive train being down the outer chassis frame led to the adoption of wide single rear tyres - and massive offside rear tyre wear. Apart from petrol engines flaming, the diesels, buried under the stairs were both noisy and ran hot.
At MCTD Stuart Pilcher - busy designing his Streamliners - looked on, no doubt with his famous benign smile and didn't even take a demonstrator which AEC offered though, no doubt, a visit was paid to Bolton.
We now leap forward to the early 1950s. Most operators were buying large numbers of simple front engined, rear platform double deckers to replace war weary pre war and wartime utility models but in deepest Lancashire Leyland Motors were planning a revolution. The advent of the underfloor engined single decker and even some rear engined coaches, notably by Foden - one of which later saw service with Bullocks of Cheadle - had led to an increase in seating capacity to 40 or even 42, just 12 or 14 seats less than the standard double decker. With power doors opposite and under the control of the driver, the safety aspect had been addressed and thoughts were turning to one man operation. Leyland determined to similarly change the double decker.
Underfloor engines were out as they raised the height of the vehicle beyond acceptable limits - though Midland Red later solved the problem with its D10 which came too late in the company's manufacturing life to enter series production.
Mindful of the problems with the AEC Q, Leyland took a different route. The first rear engined prototype of 1952 had a 27 foot long, 7 foot 6 inch wide SARO body on a frame which had a turbo charged 0.350 engine at the rear driving the wheels through an automatic gearbox. A dummy bonnet was fitted beside the driver, the engine was in a bulge which intruded onto the rear platform. The bus was widely demonstrated and was followed in 1956 by a 29 foot 10 inches long, 8 foot wide vehicle with a MCW body to the same planform and achieved a height of 13 foot 2 inches, about a foot less than the standard double decker, by use of a drop centre rear axle.
The Lowloader as it was known had a trolleybus-like flat front and a platform/engine arrangement as the previous vehicle but achieved a seating capacity of 78.
In 1956 the maximum length for double deckers on two axles was raised to 30 feet. This allowed the development of the Atlantean with a full width entrance with powered doors beside the driver, a drop centre rear axle, an engine across the rear AND a capacity of 78 seats. A prototype was shown at the 1956 Commercial Motor Show, The engine was the O.600, it had a pneumocyclic gearbox and was a semi integral vehicle. The engine was in a shrouded compartment inside the rear of the vehicle making it noisy. Whilst the vehicle was revolutionary it was too advanced for the market.
Interestingly the Manchester Evening News, reporting the vehicle, made much of the position of the exhaust which was in the roof at the offside rear dome - the MEN stating this would save damage to ladies' stockings!!
When the first Atlanteans went into service in 1958 they were a chassis/body assembly rather than semi integral, the engine was separated from the body by the rear bulkhead, there was a simpler suspension, the drop centre rear axle had gone and the bodybuilders had produced something that at once was stunningly different yet remarkably unimaginative.
When Manchester amended the order for PD2s to be delivered in 1959 to include 10 Atlanteans, it was the full height version that was specified with MCW's Orion body modified to accommodate a front entrance and rear engine - in an effort to use as many standard parts as possible.
Back in 1927 Henry Mattinson started work on a system of cross-city services which was to embrace co-operation with many of the surrounding municipalities, North Western Road Car and Lancashire United. The system covered a vast area and ran on a frequent headway basis of, at worst, one hour though 15 minute headways were standard on most routes for much of the day.
The police had been involved in the design of the scheme as the Watch Committee issued licences for all bus services in the city. Their involvement included insistence that North Western's new services to Hayfield, Buxton and Macclesfield, which ran in association with the scheme, terminated at a new bus station at Lower Mosley St. They also policed the 12 mph speed limit for buses, fining drivers who almost daily had to break the limit to maintain the schedules. The success of the services was a major factor in Parliament raising the limit first to 20 mph and then 30 mph.
By 1928 the express service scheme was operating in no less than 47 local authority areas around Manchester with 11 operators providing an effective and well patronised service. This was SELNEC/GMT nearly half a century before its time and was held up as a model for others to follow by the Ministry of Transport.
Just as everything looked rosy, Henry Mattinson died of complications resulting from malaria that he had contracted on war service in the Middle East. Had he not died so prematurely, public transport in the conurbation would have been very different and the cross-city express system would probably not have been allowed to become the victim of its own success.
By 1931 Market St was choked with trams and buses - in fact the A6, the main London-Carlisle route, was congested from Fairfield St junction to Deansgate and there was no viable alternative. Taxi drivers who complained of delays to their passengers, hauliers who couldn't deliver easily to city centre properties and the railway companies, which had suffered loss of revenue due to the success of the express system, all combined and approached both the Chief Constable (who made representations to MCTD) and the newly set up Traffic Commissioners who took over licensing of services.
A hearing was set up which resulted in the system being decimated. Most of the services were split so they didn't operate along Market St, termini being Cannon St, Piccadilly, Lower Mosley St., Exchange and Stevenson Square.
Apart from setting back the development of bus operation in the conurbation, the decision had repercussions for vehicle design and use in the city for nearly 40 years inhibiting MCTD in its choice of vehicles and service routings.
30 foot long front engined double deckers were not taken up due to continued pressure from the police to keep road space free and not slow traffic at tight corners. Mayne's services to Stevenson Square using 30 foot long rear entrance AEC Regents did cause some problems when turning into and out of Pollard St and Oldham St, but those roads were not Market St!
Forward entrance double deckers were similarly overlooked - even in 27 foot 6 inch length - because bus stops in the city centre would need re-siting so vehicles wouldn't obstruct adjacent junctions. Salford and Lancashire United didn't seem to have these problems as almost all their services terminated in Salford, though all showed Manchester on their destination blinds, and the through running Salford buses on routes 15/57/77/95/96 were always rear entrance 27 foot 6 long vehicles until the early 1960s.
The A6 went through many changes between 1931 and the closure of Market St in the 1970s. None solved the problem and the current set up has only transferred traffic elsewhere.
It wasn't as if MCTD didn't need high capacity vehicles. "Overspill" housing that had left Wythenshawe with a massive population, few shops, little in the way of employment and no rail links meant massive numbers had to be moved by bus into Manchester and Trafford Park and back daily. Langley and Hattersley were in development and, though Hyde and Middleton were close, the employment links and shopping loyalties were to Manchester.
Most undertakings would have bought vehicles specifically for the overspill routes but Piccadilly wanted a fleet that - whilst makes of vehicles and even whole batches were assigned to particular garages - could be moved at will and used anywhere (particularly in the last five or seven years of a vehicle's twenty or so year life when it could be called upon to do any type of duty, once retired from all day, front line service), thus the lack of enthusiasm for the trolleybus fleet and the very restricted use of single deckers.
So, when the last ten of the Leyland PD2 order for delivery in 1959 was changed to Atlanteans there was a mixture of surprise and knowing utterances - surprise at the complete turn around, knowing utterances along the lines of "Manchester keeping up to date again".
The next announcement also brought a similarly diverse response. The buses would go to Northenden depot at Sharston. "I told you so" was widely heard from those who could see the benefit of an extra 12 seats per working on routes to Wythenshawe.
Surprise at sending Leylands to mostly Daimler equipped Sharston was rebutted by the fact that the gearboxes would be very similar to those on that depot's Daimlers.
What surprised everyone was that Sharston had a reputation of being a militant depot and extra workload for the crews (opening doors and supervising loading for the driver/ collecting extra fares for the guard) would no doubt bring demands for extra pay and/or staff benefits, so placing the vehicles there instead of Rochdale Rd or Queens Rd serving Langley and Middleton was seen as a red rag to a bull.
So it proved. The vehicles arrived in November and December 1959 and the crews refused point blank to operate the vehicles. The management, looking to the future, wanted a deal which would allow the use of high capacity vehicles throughout the operating area and had picked the fight with the toughest depot to force the issue. It took four months of hard negotiation, four months when the vehicles were only rarely seen, being driven by inspectors, managers and engineers as the opportunity was taken to familiarise maintenance staff and others with the new acquisitions.
The Manchester Evening News stuck its oar in. Some rather odd thinking by a journalist led to the paper referring to the vehicles in every report on the dispute as "Red Dragons" - heaven knows why.
The dispute was settled in April 1960 and, at the start of the new financial year the Atlanteans (3621-3630) started carrying fare paying passengers on route #101 Piccadilly - Greenbrow Rd and Newall Green, Wythenshawe. They quickly took up other services including the #50 from Brooklands to Piccadilly via Northenden and Rusholme.
On police insistence they were kept well away from the A6 and, after less than a year, they moved to Parrs Wood to operate the #40. In 1963 they moved en bloc to Queens Rd where they stayed until SELNEC sold them - some going to Australia from where 3629 eventually returned to be part of the Transport Museum fleet.
As mentioned, rear engine bus body design in 1959 was in no way imaginative. The batch had MCW's rear engine version of the full height 30 foot Orion body with flat panels beneath the front windscreens, "spectacle" rear lower deck windows above the engine housing and the standard unequal depth upper and lower deck side windows. Combined with Manchester's overall red scheme, once the "shock of the new" had been overcome they were, frankly, dull.
Whilst the use of Orion style bodies lessened the number of new parts needed in the stores, there were some non-standard fitments. The interiors were standard green, beige and white. The seats were low backed and thin - as fitted to the Daimlers 4480-4489 which had caused the original Orion rumpus. These were not changed until seats from withdrawn trolleybuses became available in 1967 and the capacity was reduced to 76.
The rear number indicators had to be changed from outside and the rear number plate - a transfer on glass - was positioned on the cream band above the engine, necessitating the fleet number being moved to above the rear route indicator glass, the fleet numbers being in old gold. Most obvious was that the lower body panels were not split - an error that was rectified in service as, particularly, the panel forward of the rear wheels was regularly damaged, though the panels around the cab were not modified. Each bus had an offside rear emergency exit on the lower deck (deleted on 3629 since leaving service).
Delivered with 0.600 engines they were upgraded to 0.600 Power Plus in 1964, 3621 being the exception having an 0.680 fitted in 1963. 3629/30 were delivered with air suspension that made crews and passengers nauseous and this was deleted in 1965. The rearward ascending strait staircase was deemed dangerous as we shall see and 3629 was fitted with a spiral version in 1964.
When driven by Sharston men the vehicles were relatively smoothly handled, though tight cornering and the unfamiliarity with the overhang and wheelbase led to many minor accidents. Parrs Wood's drivers had greater difficulty with the gear change at first, as did those at Queens Rd but the new technique was soon mastered.
What caused the crews more problems than anything was the demand from passengers, used to jumping off open platforms at traffic lights or other hold ups to be "let off here". Apart from the illegality, the doors could only be opened by placing the speed selector (gear change) lever in a unique position which caused the bus gearbox to move to the "park" position and then open the doors.
Moving the lever to a speed or gear position first closed the doors, then allowed the vehicle to move.
It would be true to say that Manchester's first Atlanteans were hardly universally popular. From the General Manager to the newest apprentice in the workshop, from the crews to the passengers, everyone had some cause for complaint.
Lets look at the few plus points first:
The vehicles could carry 77 plus five standing - twelve passengers more than the largest vehicles in the rest of the fleet - so they could be operated more profitably and management saw the modernity of the vehicles as a draw to passengers at a time when car usage was growing.
Passengers welcomed the doors which kept warmth in and the warming effect of the engine at the rear of the lower deck. The guards liked the fact that they didn't have to stand on an open platform ....and that was about it.
On the debit side:
Due to the influence of the Police and Traffic Commissioners, the vehicles availability for use was restricted.
The vehicles came with inherent problems caused by the engine being at the rear and the lack of a radiator drawing air from the motion of the vehicle. This led to overheating as the single grille on the offside of the engine compartment hardly allowed enough cooling air. The engine was also protected from airflow by the body and, as the power was provided by units identical to those on front engined PD2s and PD3s this led to overheating with the risk of fire as the engine compartments got notoriously full of oil and dust.
Drivers, even once they got used to the gear change system, couldn't hear the engine and there were many snatched and jerky changes leading to engine and gearbox damage.
The air brakes (which were to become standard on all MCTD deliveries of all types henceforth) "snatched" due to valve problems, though these were quickly solved.
Engine changes, which were heralded as fast and convenient as the engine came as a "pod", proved no more quick or easy than on a conventional double decker and the driving position and wheelbase resulted in dozens of minor accidents and damage to body panels.
The gap between the bottom of the upper deck and the engine compartment was difficult for bus washers to clean and that gap contained something that attracted those with a sense of mischief - a button marked "Emergency Engine Stop" meant for use after an accident if the driver's cab was inaccessible or the electrical system had been damaged between cab and engine. This was within reach of the average 12 year old at bus stops where large numbers of school children caught buses and, once pressed, the system had to be re-set causing delay, whilst the miscreant would almost always be sought out by the driver, leading to further delay.
The drivers hated the doors which had split windows in each folding leaf which were not easy to see through, especially in rain and could not be opened to give a clear view without selecting the door open position on the gear change - not something to do stopped in traffic, or possible when moving - this feature was later deleted though was reinstated on later rear engined vehicles.
They also complained that, whatever notices were posted or requests made, passengers would stand on the platform and obstruct the view to the nearside. When the passengers weren't there, there was always the draught as the doors were hardly airtight.
As we have seen passengers complained about the fact they couldn't "deck off" away from stops. They found jerky braking and gear changes annoying and, in some cases, dangerous - especially when negotiating the stairs. The rearward ascending stairs had two steps towards the offside of the bus followed by a straight stair to almost the top deck, the last two steps facing the nearside of the bus. This arrangement caused a number of injury accidents when snatched changes or braking pitched passengers descending the stairs into a void - and on at least one occasion pitched a passenger ascending the stairs backward into space with fractures resulting.
This led to the spiral staircase experiment on 3629, the rotation of the spiral leaving little space to fall, and the solution came later with forward ascending stairs where any pitching at worst resulted in falling onto the steps instead of into a void.
One small point of note is that the Atlanteans were delivered without the rear wheel trims, standard on the fleet at the time, the rear wheel hubs being finished with Leyland's standard chrome and painted hub caps.
Daimler brought their Fleetline to market in 1960 and 7000 HP duly arrived at Parrs Wood in 1961 to be compared to the Atlanteans. The result was an order for twenty Gardner 6LX engined, MCW Orion bodied Fleetlines (4590-4609). 4590 appeared at the 1962 Commercial Motor Show and, like the rest of the batch, had the first (rearward ascending) version of the spiral staircase.
It also sported a large Daimler badge identical to that on 7000 HP on the lower front panels under and between the headlights. Daimler wanted their product to be identifiable but MCTD made out that the small Daimler badge on the engine compartment was enough (Atlanteans had Leyland's magnificent painted Atlas carrying the world badge on every engine compartment included in the cost) so the badge on the front was paid for by Daimler and it stayed on the vehicle for some years.
The batch was delivered at the end of 1962 and in January 1963. The front wheel trims, as was common with all Daimlers in the fleet, were soon removed but these vehicles had rear wheel trim discs though they only lasted in service until maintenance got fed up with them.
These all went into service on Wythenshawe routes, six of them carrying offside illuminated adverts for Threlfall's Ales, one for London and Manchester Insurance. Another batch of 20 were ordered for delivery in 1963 but, before they arrived, something rather odd happened. Whilst other operators were starting to order rear engined vehicles in quantity, Manchester was still not convinced.
It wanted the flexibility the traditional front engined, rear entrance vehicle could offer and was not convinced that the holy grail of double deck operation - one man working - would be allowed any time soon. It also wanted to see if anything other than its traditional Leyland and Daimler options were workable. They only supplier offering anything vastly different was AEC and, apart from a dwindling number of Regents and Renowns being built, what it had on offer was the Routemaster which London Transport had agreed could be offered on the open market.
LT had indicated that it expected to continue ordering 27 foot 6 inch long Routemasters for some time and with around seventeen hundred already either built or on order the vehicle had proved itself in service. In February 1963 RM1414, fresh from the factory and already adorned with adverts on every available between decks panel, arrived at Parrs Wood. With a Leyland engine the vehicle sounded very much like PD2 3520 but its looks, interior and exterior finish were superb and beyond even Manchester's specifications. It spent its stay on routes #41, #42 and #43 and, it being half term, I was able to ride on it and talk to the crews.
Having travelled on Routemasters in London it was interesting to compare the performance in the somewhat lighter Manchester traffic. To passengers, crews and management alike, the bus was an eye opener and there were many in Devonshire St who would have loved to have got their hands on a couple of hundred or more but the cost of each vehicle, the logistics and costs of bringing in an entirely new make and the complexities of the integral construction all added up to a financial nonsense so it was to be nearly 30 years before a Routemaster was to appear on Palatine Rd again, this time running for Greater Manchester buses who took 10 second hand London vehicles and ran them from West Didsbury to Exchange on a tight and frequent schedule for some years - some of the vehicles being 28 years old when purchased!
Having flirted with maintaining tradition, the Department looked again at its 20 Fleetlines on order and took a step forward. As we have previously discussed, most rear engined vehicles were uninspiring to look at. Liverpool, Glasgow and Bolton had all started to address the problems of the design and Manchester made a contribution by re-designing the panel under the front windscreen of the MCW body, adding attractive mouldings and a one piece curved windscreen.
The batch that arrived in November and December 1963 (4610-4627 and 4629) were exactly as the first Fleetlines but 4628 when it arrived in January 1964 had the new style front end and also a forced air ventilation system with just two opening quarter lights on each deck.
The next batch of Fleetlines (4655-4684) appeared in the autumn of 1964 and were the first 2.5 metre (8 foot 2 1/2 inch) wide buses in the fleet. They incorporated the design changes seen on 4528 which smartened the appearance without moving too far from standardisation, brought in batch wide florescent lighting which became the norm and had automatic temperature controlled heating - with plenty of opening windows, though the range of these reflected that on earlier deliveries of front engined vehicles.
1965 was to see the retirement of A F Neal who had guided the Department from post war austerity through the rise of private car ownership to the brink of a revolution in UK bus transport at the end of the 1960s whilst maintaining standards and a viable financial status.
His successor can truly be said to have been the major influence in UK double deck bus design from 1968 to the present and it was due to a change in legislation that his ideas on bus design, already forward looking at his earlier appointments, were able to be implemented to their full potential.
Albert Neal retired as General Manager in March 1965. Most of his tenure had seen ever increasing costs at a time of reducing passenger figures and, as part of the battle to reduce costs, he had introduced an experiment in 1961 which ran to 1965 whereby route #130 was converted to one man operation with Tiger Cubs (the service was rush hour only) tickets were dispensed from machines at the termini and books of tickets were sold from enquiry offices. The service ran happily enough but the ticket dispense machines were prone to breakdown and vandalism. As the one man operation worked and fares could also be collected by the driver, the decision was taken to expand the system and to provide the necessary vehicles. Manchester looked to Leyland and Daimler. Rear engined single deckers were coming into fashion but Daimler's Roadliner was proving unreliable whilst Leyland's Panther was only available as a 36 foot long chassis.
The Department decided the Panther was too big and persuaded Leyland to produce the Panther Cub, a 33 foot long version, and ordered twenty - the largest order placed for one of Leyland's least successful types. Park Royal provided extremely good looking 43 seat bodies with a double width entrance door and a single width centre exit. Numbered 61-80, the first two were delivered in November 1964 (62 was exhibited at the Commercial Motor Show). 63 arrived in February 1965 followed by 64-71 in March which, along with some Atlanteans, were the last buses delivered under Mr Neal's management.
The buses entered service from Hyde Rd, Queens Rd, Northenden, Princess Rd and Birchfields Rd on an enlarged range of one man services. Trials with the first two in late 1964 had led to concerns about their performance so turbochargers were fitted to the last ten (71-80), 72-80 being delivered in April and May, The turbochargers gave a great deal of trouble and were normally disconnected. The vehicles were all sold by SELNEC in 1970, most going Australia where they did give good service. To ride on they were pleasant, if a little sluggish, had good windows and adequate passenger space - the double entrance, low step and sloping floor being a great improvement on the Tiger Cubs.
Delivery times in the mid 1960s were quite extended. The order for 1964/5 was placed in early 1963 and was for Orion style bodies again, fifty to be placed on Leyland PD2s, thirty on Atlanteans - experience with the first batch and with the Fleetlines having persuaded the Department to dabble further with the new breed.
In September 1963 the order was amended. The PD2s were cancelled and a further forty two Atlanteans were ordered. These were delivered between March and September 1965 and were to the same style as the third batch of Fleetlines. Numbered 3721-3792 they had Daimler gearboxes and the drop centre rear axle designed for the Albion Lowlander bringing their height to that of the Fleetlines. 3729 had illuminated interior advertisements which doubled as interior illumination.
Albert Neal's last orders were for more Fleetlines and Atlanteans and the batches were bigger than intended so that the Crossleys could be completely withdrawn. All had the Manchester amended Orion style body and were intended to be delivered half in 1965, half in 1966.
The Fleetlines were delivered as 4701-4760 but delays in delivery saw the first arrive in late December 1965 with the last of the first half (4730) arriving in February 1966. 4701-4730 were all registered in 1965 whilst 4731-4760, delivered between December 1966 and January 1967, were all registered in 1966 to avoid splitting registration dates. On arrival it was seen that the twin vents under the front windscreen in the moulded panel had been deleted and Daimler had got its wish - the small Daimler badge seen on the engine cover was replicated in the space vacated by the vents.
4757/8 had an exterior illuminated advert panel and 4759/60 had Leyland pneumocyclic gearboxes.
The Atlanteans arrived between May and November 1966 being numbered 3801-3860 and had the temperature control system fitted to the previous Atlanteans - 3851-3860 having forced air ventilation and no opening windows. As with the Fleetlines, the vents beneath the windscreen were deleted though no Leyland badge appeared to fill the blank space.
It may well be said that Fleetline 4629 was the start of yet another "Standard" for Manchester and the 220 vehicles to that design which followed were Mr Neal's definitive rear engined vehicle, following on from his adaptation of the Orion style body for the front engined Leylands and Daimlers.
Of course, as with every Manchester standard design, there were one offs and exceptions to the rule - mostly in the cause of experimentation and advancing design. In addition to those mentioned, Atlantean 3723 had no opening windows and a trial version of the forced air ventilation system fitted to 3851-60. Various Atlanteans from 3763 to 3792 had a variety of seat colours and coverings - including some all black ones - at the behest of the new General Manager though all of the last batches of Fleetlines and Atlanteans featured red and grey interiors.
As a hint of what was to come 3852 was fitted with a passenger counter and driver's periscope whilst 4747 had a public address system. 4703 and 4711 were delivered with single rear wheels and wide tyres in an experiment regarding tyre wear whilst 3831 had rotating roof vents and 3835 had a prototype cab for one man operation.
To travel on the Atlanteans were a great improvement on the original batch and the last batch were by far the most comfortable. The Fleetlines gave a more solid and slightly noisier ride but, by the standards of the day, both types were at the forefront of the industry and offered passengers a more comfortable ride compared to the rear entrance Leylands and Daimlers.
The cost savings benefits of operating a standard fleet - albeit with a distinctive "Manchester" look - can be seen in the 1964/65 accounts which showed that when revenue had declined by £137,000 and labour costs had risen by 5% on the previous year, the nett surplus for the Department was a healthy £95,000.
The man inheriting this carefully managed fleet took over in April 1965 and, although only staying three and a half years, transformed the operation and can truthfully be said to have overseen a revolution in bus design that was to change the look of the British double decker for the next 35 years.
Phil Blinkhorn
06/2013
To view Part Four Click Here
14/06/13 - 16:23
Phil,
I noted your comment about seating capacities on double deck buses that were 26 feet long being restricted to 52. Before 1939 the limiting factor was not one of length but one of the loaded weight of the bus. Both London Transport STLs and Leyland bodied Titans had seating for 56 passengers and achieved this within the gross vehicle weight limits. During the War gross vehicle weight limits were eased (because of the use of cast iron for chassis components and steel panelling rather than aluminium castings and panels)permitting 56 seats in highbridge double deckers. Before 1939 some operators chose to limit seating capacity for reasons of 'passenger comfort' or had a limit imposed because of their specification for the bodies. This was the case with Nottingham City Transport with a standard seating capacity of 54 (28 upstairs and 26 downstairs)for its pre-war Metro-Cammell bodied Regents delivered in 1938/39. During the war many of Nottingham's Regents, particularly its 8.8 litre Regents with Met-Cam or Northern Counties bodies, were re-seated reflecting the increase to the allowed gross vehicle weight.
Michael Elliott
15/06/13 - 06:50
Micheal, I didn't say that 26 ft long vehicles were restricted to 52 seats. What the piece says is "the capacity was restricted to AROUND 52 seats" and that is somewhat different.
A quick perusal of Peter Gould's fleet lists will show that, prior to the introduction of 27 ft long double deckers, capacities ranged from 48 to 56 seats, so 52 is a reasonable median figure to quote, qualified with the word "around".
I'm not aware that gross vehicle weight particularly restricted the capacity of double deckers pre war. Manchester's Streamliners were either 54 or 55 seaters and there had been 56 seaters in the fleet from 1933. The Streamliners were finished to a high standard including the use of double skinning with Rexine finish and a great deal of solid wood. Vehicle weight was between 6 tons 16 cwt and 6 tons 19 cwt.
City operators of highbridge vehicles tended to go for higher capacity at the expense of passenger comfort. Rural and Lowbridge vehicles tended towards smaller capacities to allow easier access to the bench seating on the upper deck.
When after the war the relaxation of weight limits continued it did have an impact. Manchester and many other operators achieved 58 seats in a 26 foot long body, though to some discomfort for the passengers.
Phil Blinkhorn
15/06/13 - 06:57
To be fair to Michael, I think he is correct in saying that the critical thing was the weight of the vehicles and that adding seats - and more particularly their passengers - would tip a vehicle over the limit. I have read that in more than one book.
David Oldfield
15/06/13 - 13:45
David, sorry to disagree but, whilst weight was involved in the equation, space was the CRITICAL limiting factor.
It is only physically possible to to put so many seats into a given space and allow both knee room and access. Many operators crammed 55/56 seats into 26ft vehicles with a high standard of interior finish and remained within the axle loadings permitted, as I've demonstrated.
Had weight been the critical factor few operators would have traded capacity for a better standard of finish so you would have seen 58 or even 60 seats in a utilitarian 26ft body. Unfortunately there just wasn't the space available for more seats, whatever the empty or loaded weight of the vehicle.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/06/13 - 06:51
Continuing the weight versus space theme, I think weight did play a part in some situations. I have read that Leyland TD Titans fitted with a torque converter were heavier than their gearbox equivalents, sometimes leading to a seating capacity change. Didn't the last 10 of London Transport's STD class of TD4s have two less seats because they were TD4c's? Portsmouth had two TD4c's, one with EEC body and one with Leyland vee-front body. These both seated two less upstairs than their contemporary gearbox equivalents. (The EEC were H26/24R on TD4, and H26/22R on TD4c, while the vee-fronts were H26/26R on TD4, but H26/24R on TD4c). Interestingly, the two TD4c's were upseated by two seats to the same layout as the others in 1944. At that point, the torque converters were still fitted. These were not removed and normal gearboxes fitted until 1947. Presumably, if a weight factor was a problem when new, war-time caused a relaxation of the regulations? That's only a guess on my part. Portsmouth's pre-war fleet did not crush in passengers, mostly being 50-seat or 52-seat vehicles. The first 56-seaters were the wartime Daimlers, and post-war there were again several batches of 52-seaters, except the Weymann-bos=died PD1's which were 56 seaters. Post 1952, 56-seats became standard for some years - I'll not mention later changes as not really relevant to the seats/weight discussion of pre-ward 26ft d/d here. It's also interesting to compare the Southdown intake of that period. In 1935, standard drive petrol TD4s were 52-seaters, but petrol with torque converter were 50-seats, and another batch of diesel with standard drive were also only 50 seats. However in 1936, petrol with standard drive were 52 seaters, and a batch of diesel with torque converters were also 52-seaters. From 1937-39, intake was wholly diesel engines with standard gearboxes, and sat 52 whether in high- or low-bridge build. So Southdown presumably were only concerned about weight (if it was an issue at all) in the first year's intake. Bodies were built by Park Royal, Short Bros or Beadle. So for Portsmouth Corp, there might have been a weight concern (for just two vehicles), but no concern for Southdown once their initial batches were in service - but they were satisfied to run 52-seaters until war-time Guy Arabs appeared, and post-war intake plus rebodying of these pre-war TDs brought in 54, 56 and 58 seaters. I doubt if this will give any definitive answer, but I feel some operators had at least some initial concerns over weight limits in the 1930's, even below the theoretical 56. (Mayne's of Manchester however ran a 62-seat front entrance AEC Regent in the 30's!).
Michael Hampton
17/06/13 - 10:22
To press my point, and support Michael, "The AEC Story" (Brian Thackray) makes more than one reference to builders having to change seating capacity (down) when the fitting a heavier oil (diesel) engine rather the still available petrol option. This had nothing to do with issues of seating pitch or space available.
David Oldfield
17/06/13 - 10:22
You are certainly right, Michael H, that the Portsmouth's TD4c's had two less seats than the TD4's. Their all-Crossley DD42/7's also had two single seats midway downstairs, but as all of DD42/7's had turbo- converters, I can't compare them with models with conventional gearboxes. Others might be able to say, since the vehicles were pretty standard nationwide. The seating wasn't increased with the later fitting of Leyland TD4 engines/gearboxes, though.
LGOC took advantage of the 26ft length relaxation by producing 100 60-seat STL's (H26/34R) in a very box-like body. Even though LPTB settled on 56-seaters from then on, these remained 60-seaters for all their lives.
Chris Hebbron
17/06/13 - 10:24
Michael, this will be my final posting on this point.
I responded to your original statement "Before 1939 the limiting factor was not one of length but one of the loaded weight of the bus" and also responded to the fact you also misquoted my original statement.
In your latest post you say "I think weight did play a part in some situations". There's a very great difference in meaning between your two statements.
Pre-war some operators may have lowered their body capacities on certain heavier chassis on the basis of power/weight ratio and fuel burn but, again referring to Peter Gould, this was not the norm and was not the limiting factor across the board as per your initial statement.
The increase in permitted axle loadings in WW2 was to allow for heavier materials used in lieu of the aluminium required for the war effort, not to increase capacity.
During that time there were many experiments to increase capacity on existing pre-war vehicles including relaxation in the number of standing passengers allowed on vehicles seated to capacity and also the change to perimeter seating to allow greater numbers of standees.
Your mention of Mayne's Regent CNB 1, which was a real odd ball, just amplifies my point that many urban operators would get as much capacity as possible out of the available space. I'm not aware of the full details of its construction but Mayne, as a small independent operator would certainly have worked out the power/weight/fuel cost ratio and it is almost certain that the bus was cost effective because Mayne's territory was reasonably flat.
When it was re-bodied it was down seated to 58, probably on the basis of comfort. Citing that bus somewhat destroys your argument that weight was a limiting factor as the weight of 10 extra passengers over the averaged capacity nationwide means the vehicle must have been very flimsy to fall within weight limits, if they were so restrictive.
I have some professional experience in determining seating capacities, access space and floor loadings in a different field and the fact remains that, whatever the weight of the chassis, the body and the load carried, the major limiting factors when determining seating capacity in any given area are the size of the seats, the access required to each row of seats and the seat pitch i.e. the distance between any given point on each of two seats when placed in rows.
Phil Blinkhorn
17/06/13 - 15:02
Phil, thank you for your comment as the "last on the weight/seating issues". May I kindly point out that my contribution posted on 17th June was my first on the subject. The earlier comment had come from a Michael Elliott. Thus there is a very good reason for your note that there is a great difference in the statement made - we are two different people. Thank you for your feedback, particularly on The Maynes' bus - very much an exception in its time.
Michael Hampton
17/06/13 - 16:30
Micheal Hampton, My sincere apologies. All I can say is that highlights the problem of reading and scrolling a screen. Once again, I truly apologise.
Phil Blinkhorn
18/06/13 - 07:10
That's fine Phil - I have enjoyed the first three parts of your retrospective and look forward to part four later. I was a student in Manchester 1965-69, but didn't keep any detailed lists of buses then. However I recognise the various batches mentioned. It was a fascinating era with Stockport continuing to buy traditional PD3s bodied by East Lancs with just a few having a forward entrance, and Manchester having it's new generation Mancunians on Atlantean and Fleetline chassis. I remember using these fairly regularly on a then new "minimax" service - 169/170 - from Didsbury across the south east corner of Manchester to a point near Ashton-u-Lyne (where I then changed to a traditional Ashton PD2, or walked to my final destination).. That sounds a bit vague, but it is 45 years ago!
Michael Hampton
18/06/13 - 09:12
Michael, sounds like you were getting off the 169/170 at Droylsden. My wife used the same route at around the same time during her gap year when she worked for Ron Hill, the Olympic marathon runner, at Courtaulds.
Phil Blinkhorn
24/06/13 - 08:33
Phil,
I hadn't logged on to 'Old Bus Photos' since making my comments on 14/06/13, in respect of your article on Manchester's Buses, until a couple of days ago.
I regret that I missed, when compiling my comments, the qualifying words 'around 52' you used when writing about seating capacities on pre-war double deck buses. My apologies for my omission.
However, I am still of the view that the limit on gross vehicle weight of 11 tons that applied during the period in question had more effect on seating capacities than the 26 foot limit on length for two axle double deck buses. I see that three correspondents - Messrs Oldfield, Hampton and Hebbron - responded with examples known to them of weight related seating capacity issues.
My recollection of 56 seat double deckers of 26 foot length is not one of 56 seats being crammed in as you described in your response to David Oldfield on 15/06/13. I am of over average height and did not find the leg room between seats on such buses inadequate.
The Construction and Use Regulations that resulted from the 1930 Road Traffic Act laid down maximum dimensions in respect of length, height and width along with minimum dimensions in respect of headroom in the lower and upper decks and distance between seats (the pitch you referred to in your posting of 17/06/13)and gangway width along with provision for emergency exits. The gross vehicle weight of 11 tons, I mentioned above, was part of these Regulations.
The comments made about Mayne's 62 seat Regent (CNB 1) are interesting. This bus was one of four Regents new to Mayne's between November 1934 and September 1936. The four were AXJ 496 (60 seats), BNF 553, CNB 1 and CVR 1 (all 62 seats). These four buses were all of the 16'3" wheelbase variety with an overall length of 26' and had Park Royal bodies with forward entrances. Of more interest is that Mayne's had TV 735, a 1930 AEC Regent formerly with Nottingham City Transport, rebodied by Park Royal in February 1938 with 62 seats and this in a 15'6" wheelbase bus of 25' overall length. This indeed seems a case of 'cramming' seats in. But the fact is that these buses must have conformed to the minimum seat spacing dimensions to have received their initial Certificate of Fitness. It is also of note that these five buses all had petrol engines - always good for a couple of hundredweight saving when compared with a diesel engined bus. I don't have a note of the unladen weight of the four buses with Manchester registrations but TV 735's unladen weight was 5 tons 19 cwts. I assume that when CNB 1 was rebodied it was also fitted with a diesel engine. The 60 seat STLs introduced by LGOC also had petrol engines.
During 1939 Coventry Corporation adopted 60 seat double deckers as its new standard. These buses were on Daimler COA6 (a variant particular to Coventry with the AEC 7.7 engine) and Daimler COG5-60 (this model was a double deck version of the COG5-40 single deck chassis and had a more compact arrangement of the engine compartment with an upright radiator). These buses had Brush bodies (the COG5-60) or MCCW bodies (the COA6)with metal frames. Again Construction and Use Regulations in respect of unladen weight and seat spacing must have been complied with. I don't know what these buses were like in respect of interior finish. Maybe they had a single skin roof and no interior lining panels.
During the years 1938/9 Nottingham City Transport took delivery of 46 AEC Regents with MCCW H28/26R bodies (the ETOs, ETVs and FTOs). The unladen weight of these buses was 6-17-2(the ETOs), 6-17-3 (the ETVs) and 6-17-0(the FTOs). Before these buses came, the 1937 deliveries had been 45 Regents with Craven's bodies. These buses were ordered as H28/26R but were found to be 'overweight' at 6-19-0 and had to be re-seated to H26/26R (but re-seated to H28/26R after 1945). An example here of the gross vehicle weight having an effect on seating capacity as south of the river Trent at West Bridgford UDC the standard bus was an AEC Regent with a Park Royal H31/25R body with an unladen weight of 6-9-1. My recollection (as a 12/13 year old) of the pre-war West Bridgford buses that lasted to the early 1960's is that they were quite well finished inside, although they may have had a single skin roof upstairs. The seating configuration of 31/25 was due to West Bridgford using a Park Royal version of the 'Roe staircase'.
The unladen weight of Nottingham's 1938/9 Regents can be compared with Manchester's Streamliners, that also sat 54 passengers in a 28/26 configuration. The buses with MCCW body frames seem to have had an unladen weight of around 6-16-0 and had a seating configuration of H28/26R. This is based on footnotes in 'The Manchester Bus' and the earlier publication 'Manchester's Buses 1906 - 1945'. These footnotes indicate that the English Electric - Crossley body had an unladen weight of 6-19-1 and were about three cwt. heavier that those buses with MCCW based frames. The buses with these English Electric based frames sat fewer passengers at H28/24R. Another footnote explains that those Streamliners with Leyland based bodies had an unladen weight of 6-15-3 and were slightly lighter than the MCCW framed buses. This allowed an additional seat upstairs making the configuration H29/26R. I see that pre-war Manchester buses with H30/26R bodies were 'Standards' with Metro - Vicker's alloy frames or Accles and Pollack's frames. I presume these frames were lighter than the MCCW equivalent and allowed a lower unladen weight and a higher seating capacity.
Other examples of pre-war 56 seat double deckers I've come across are Roe bodies with a typical unladen weight of around six and a half tons and Weymann metal framed bodies of around 6 tons 12 cwt. (although such bodies seem to have saved weight by using a single skin roof).
My mention in my comments of 14.06.13 of he relaxation of weight limits during the war to allow for use of cast iron for castings and steel for panelling applied to existing pre-war buses and allowed operators to re-seat these buses as resources permitted. An increase to a gross laden weight of 12 tons was approved in 1946 and came at a time when operators were generally more interested in the durability that cast iron chassis components gave and the ability to 'beef up' body frames than a reduction in fuel consumption (the term you use of 'fuel burn' sounds 'aviation' to me and fuel consumption is the term I was more familiar with in my 43 years in the bus industry).
The quest for lower fuel consumption and lighter bodies came in the 1950s.
My point remains that the gross laden weight limit of 11 tons as applied prior to 1939 had a profound effect on seating capacities and in support of this I quote Alan Townsin from his book 'Park Royal Coachworks Volume One' (TPC, 1979)in which he wrote 'The main limitation on seating was the severe limit on gross vehicle weight applied at the time'.
Michael Elliott
24/06/13 - 16:10
Michael E,
Thanks for a very interesting post and for your apology.
I'm away for the next 9 days and haven't the time to go into detail but, given the evidence there must be some answer to this with regard to both weight and space.
When I get back I'll do some work on possible dimensions used to achieve the numbers but my gut reaction is that there must have been some dispensations, at least in terms of space, if not weight, for the higher capacities to have been achieved.
I mention I have some experience in layouts. 33 years ago I was a member of the team that, in co-operation with the emergency services nationwide, drew up definitive regulations for conference room layouts for the UK where, previously, each area of the country had its own rules, normally dictated by the local fire service.
We consulted widely within the industry but also with transport bodies, airlines and British Rail to see how they defined the various dimensions for seats, seat pitch and access. Obviously there are certain minima that cannot be ignored so when I get back home I'll dig out the old paper work and see just how a quart may have been capable of being into a pint pot.
Phil Blinkhorn
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